Time zones, licensure rules, and figuring out whether the work you trained for is still the work you want to do, building an international therapy practice comes with challenges that don't show up in the highlight reel. In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, I'm replaying one of our most popular conversations while I take a recording break to travel through Switzerland and Italy.
I sit down with Lucy Orton, a therapist and corporate coach based in Southeast Asia who sees clients across the UK and the US. She walks me through how she built a global practice around her family's life, how her advertising and marketing background opened an unexpected door into corporate coaching, and why she's shifting toward couples intensives instead of a packed weekly caseload.
In This Episode, We Explore…
Connect with Lucy Orton:
Website - https://www.couplesawaken.com/ | https://www.lucyorton.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/lucyortontherapy
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucyorton/
Connect with me:
Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab
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Transcript:
[00:00:00] Kym: Hey, everybody. It's Kim again. Still on a little recording break, still pulling favorites out of the archives for you. If you didn't listen last week, I'm in Switzerland. I'm taking complete time off. I'm modeling what I talk about on The Traveling Therapist podcast. I've got multiple income streams.
[00:00:18] I've got plenty of space and time to be able to just take essentially a month off and not have to work at all. So, I'm putting out some of our favorite episodes here for you all to be able to listen to while I'm traveling through Switzerland and Italy for the next month or so So this week's episode answers something I get asked about constantly, really.
[00:00:40] What does it actually look like to run a therapy practice across countries? Not the fantasy version, the real one with time zones and licensure rules, and the question of whether you can-- if the work you're trained for is even the work you want to be doing anymore. So Lucy Orton, this is one of our most popular episodes, is a therapist and a corporate coach living in Southeast Asia, seeing clients in both the UK and the US.
[00:01:06] In this episode, she walks through how she built a global practice around her family's life, how her advertising and marketing background opened up a door into corporate coaching, and why she moved towards couples intensives instead of a full caseload of weekly hours. The corporate coaching piece is the part most people miss, and it's the part I would rewind if I were you. So here's Lucy
[00:01:29] Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist podcast. We have a super interesting guest today. She has got quite the story. I can't wait to just dive in and talk about how she's making all this work.
[00:01:41] Lucy Orton, thank you so much for being here today. Can you please tell us how you went from being just your traditional therapist to a traveling therapist?
[00:01:51] Lucy: Absolutely. And thank you so much for having me, Kim. I'm really excited to be here. I'm Lucy Orton, and I am a therapist and also a corporate coach, and I don't really think I've ever been a traditional therapist. I think I've always been a little bit unusual. Um, I kind of began in positive psychology coaching, and then I back engineered myself into counseling, partly when I discovered IFS, Internal Family Systems.
[00:02:16] And so I really shifted from that world of coaching to the world of therapy. And then as a sort of byline of that, I work with organizations doing kind of corporate coaching packages fed in, you know, with all of the kind of content that I do in my private practice. So those are my two parts of my business, private practice and corporate work.
[00:02:36] And then in terms of, kind of the non-traditional way that I work locationally, I'm really lucky to be based in Southeast Asia. So that was kind of what spurred, yeah, it's like spurred me into thinking more broadly, I think. I feel, I find it really inspiring being out of my home country. Yeah, so that's,
[00:02:51] Kym: Y- yeah. That's amazing. So everyone can hear your accent, so where are you from originally? And then we were talking before we hit record. It, it's kind of a twisted sort of like licensure and coaching in different countries and all of that stuff. can we talk about some of that, just how, like, it all works and where you're from originally and where your, licensure is based versus your coaching business and all of that?
[00:03:11] 'Cause I think people listen to this podcast, especially maybe from the UK or wherever, it... They're like, "How do I make this work and still be international?" So I love having perspectives of people that aren't from the United States, you
[00:03:23] Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. And that's, yeah, partly why I reached out to you, Kim, because I thought, oh, it'd be nice to have a different-- I feel like I have a slightly different perspective. But I also feel really aligned with you guys in the US, you know, 'cause I really love to learn from you. I think you're further ahead in terms of a lot of the money mindset for therapists, well, in, in some spheres.
[00:03:39] But yeah, so I'm, I'm British and you know, lived in Southeast Asia for the past four years. Previously have also lived in California, so have a hu- huge love of California and, and San Francisco particularly. And I did my coach training when I was in the UK, and then when I was in Southeast Asia, I did a lot of my therapy training via Australia.
[00:04:01] So I'm currently registered as an Australian counselor and I've had a lot of training with IFS, uh, the IFS Institute, Brainspotting International, and now Relational Life Therapy. So I'm very kind of international slash US leaning in my trainings, my modalities, my kind of passion for like all of that amazing CPD that comes out of, of the US.
[00:04:24] and then I have this brilliant ability to work globally because we're not as restricted. We- we're not restricted. So when I first moved to Asia, I was working predominantly with UK clients 'cause that was kind of where I came from. And now I work a lot with US clients, especially for my couples work, because it's your evening is my morning, which is when my kids are in school and, you know, I have room and also I can meet couples where they're at in the evenings you know, whether they're on the West Coast, the East Coast, or in the middle.
[00:04:51] So that's been a really lovely shift actually. When I first came to Asia, I was like, how am I going to like fit everyone in and not be working when my kids are home, you know, and be on my own during the day not working? And I think that's where that creativity of spirit came in and, and thinking about, you know, the kind of work I wanna do. And yeah. So, um, I think that answers your question.
[00:05:11] Kym: yeah, yeah, no, I, I just, it's just so casual. I just like to hear what you're saying really. There's no, you
[00:05:17] Lucy: Yeah, no right answer.
[00:05:19] Kym: I love that. It's like we've got kids, and we're in this time zone. How can I, like, adjust to the world globally, make it work so I can have the schedule that I wanna have, and be able to still, like, live my life, you know?
[00:05:31] I think that, that's amazing. So being creative and figuring out, "Oh, okay, I love couples work. Most couples work during the day in the United States, and they need evening appointments, so why don't I branch out and do it over there?" I think that's brilliant really. Yeah
[00:05:46] Lucy: Yeah, and I think it's also like you give yourself permission. I think when you leave the sort of the rat race or you leave your place of origin and, you know, we're very, very privileged and fortunate to have this opportunity. I know it's not the same for everyone globally, but for us it was an, this fantastic opportunity.
[00:06:02] It widens your perspective and it also gives you this permission to be a bit more brave. And I know that when I first came out here, I feel like I have changed a lot. I've really challenged my thinking because I was thinking, "How can I ask my clients to do a 6:00 AM, you know, session? They're not gonna wanna do that."
[00:06:17] And now I look at it like, well, my people will want to meet me when, you know, where I'm at. So I think actually saw a post on, on a Facebook group this week where someone was saying, "Oh, I'm really worried, how am I gonna get people in my state to see me at 7:00 AM?" And I was like, "The, your people are there and they will, there are people that will love that approach," just as there are people in the, in the US who really value being able to do an evening session.
[00:06:40] No one cares where you are or you know who they're talking to. Well, they do care who they're talking to, but you know what I mean. They don't, they don't mind what ac- what accent you've got or anything like that. So yeah, I just think it kind of, it's that permission piece as well of like, I can make this work for me and my
[00:06:54] Kym: love that. Yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, that idea of build it, they will come kind of thing. You know? If, if you set your schedule, the people that fit that schedule will actually come to you during those times, you know?
[00:07:07] Lucy: And in a way, I think it just gives you a bit of a more intentional outlook on like, you know, that's why I think I've made a lot of the, the business decisions that I've made, because I do come from a place of what fits with how I want to live. Like, I adore the work that I do, and I adore my life even more.
[00:07:25] Kym: Yes, of
[00:07:26] Lucy: I, you know, that's, that's the structure and I feel very lucky to be kind of working within that structure of in- adoring my work and adoring my life. But I know the hierarchy and I think, you know, if we all kind of trust that bit, that's really, really helpful.
[00:07:39] Kym: That's amazing. Yeah. So y- you had mentioned, I don't know if we already said it in here, but I know when we were talking, like corporate, corporate work, organizational work, that sort of thing. Could you talk about that some? 'Cause people ask me that a lot, like, you know, my coaching clients are like, "How do, how do I get into, like, that type of work?
[00:07:56] Get into corporations, organizations where..." Especially Silicon Valley, that type of thing, where it probably you can make more money, I would assume. You can charge more do less work for more money, you know, that kind of thing. So I'd love if we could just, like, touch on that. Like, how did you even get into it?
[00:08:12] It sounds like you were in San Francisco, maybe that gave you an introduction. But I'd love to hear, like, what that story was about.
[00:08:20] Lucy: Yeah. I mean, the corporate work's am- amazing. And how it kind of started for me was there's an incredible British coach called Jessica Lorimer, who I would highly recommend. She has a podcast called "Selling to Corporates." You should get her on. I mean, she doesn't travel, but she would be very interesting to your audience.
[00:08:35] I can introduce you. She's amazing.
[00:08:37] Kym: that. I'd love that
[00:08:38] Lucy: and yeah, I went to a few talks with her related to-- Like, it just, she just got put in front of me, you know, another audience I was in, another s- you know, spark of inspiration. She's incredible. And she teaches all sorts of people, consultants, people that might work in construction, people that work in gender pay equality, some therapists, but not, I would say not enough therapists, you know, know about her work.
[00:09:00] But lots of wellbeing people. And she has a really great structured program, which I was in, called the C-Suite. It taught me how to, how to outreach. So it's a lot of cold outreach, but also doing things like running executive roundtables and then creating proposals, which I love. Turns out I love writing a proposal.
[00:09:17] And then I also had a really great sort of leg up, which was unique to me, which is I worked in advertising and marketing for five years before I changed direction in my 20s. And so I have some really great contacts in San Francisco. I have contacts in Australia. I have contacts within different organizations within that niche.
[00:09:35] And similarly to therapy, what Jessica really suggests is that you that you niche into an industry. You don't just kind of go out being very, very broad, although like with our websites, you can still catch people. But yeah, her model is, is brilliant.
[00:09:50] And, one of the things that I did was shifted my attention to this part of the world So I, I leveraged my network and I created an executive roundtable, and then I wrote a white paper, and this was all kind of following a lot of Jessica's
[00:10:02] uh,
[00:10:02] Kym: Wow.
[00:10:03] Lucy: And I
[00:10:04] Kym: tell me, can I interrupt you? What is an executive roundtable? 'Cause I don't even know.
[00:10:07] Lucy: Yeah,
[00:10:08] Kym: I'm like, "Wait, what? What is that?"
[00:10:10] Lucy: I didn't know before I created one. So, what I did was I had a subject which was about imposter syndrome in creative industries, and I reached out to, I think I found like an awards, a good, really kind of solid awards scheme in Australia, and I reached out to the top 20 or 30 women and said, "I'm doing this imposter syndrome in women in creative industries."
[00:10:32] It was women-focused, that one. "Would you be interested in short interview and then joining completely free this roundtable with your peers?" I was very lucky 'cause I had a friend who worked at Facebook at the time in Sydney, and so I leveraged her a little bit and said, "She's gonna be there," so they were all very keen to come.
[00:10:48] I think I had about 15 people, which was too many.
[00:10:50] Kym: Yeah.
[00:10:51] Lucy: and then I, I I facilitated a group of CEOs and heads of people, and we had this discussion around imposter syndrome in their industry specifically, some of the things that were coming up, some of the issues with women. And I'm not joking to say, that was four years ago, I still get repeat business from those clients because they got to see me in action.
[00:11:12] We got, you know, they got to see me facilitate. I, I-- and I ended up doing for example, I w- did a series of lunch and learns for one of them. I did a ton of coaching for another of those CEOs. And the third one I'm thinking of off the top of my head I've just run my third year of a return to work mother, mothers and fathers support program using kind of mindset, a lot of the things we know in the th- from the therapy room in that context.
[00:11:36] So yeah. Does that summarize? That is quite complicated.
[00:11:39] Kym: it. It's really cool though. So it's like a, it's like a free web- it's like almost like a free webinar lead magnet kind of thing. And then it just, when you do so great with that, people just love the help and the, the offer and they wanna work with you and that sort of thing,
[00:11:54] Lucy: And I wrote
[00:11:54] Kym: little more fancy.
[00:11:56] Lucy: Yeah, it's a little more fancy. I wrote a white paper at the end, which was, you know, kind of short, short, you know, I don't know, 20 pages report, something like that. Doesn't sound very short, but you know, like with pictures. Maybe it was not that long. And then I had that to kind of promise them, so they got that at the end.
[00:12:07] They got something out of it. They also got to network. So it was like a kind of webinar, but much smaller audience. But then it's about building and honing those individual relationships. And now, you know, they're always in my kind of black book, those people, which is really awesome. And yeah, so that's, that's kind of one of the areas that was really successful for me, and I really should do another one.
[00:12:26] I'm
[00:12:27] Kym: Yeah, I love it
[00:12:28] Lucy: actually, Kim, are you be interested in this? I, I need to speak to that friend who's at Facebook, which- who was at Facebook. She's now working for a company called Springboards AI, which is like brand strategy and AI. And I was wondering about I'm going to contact her and suggest, talk to her about burnout and AI and agency life in that, that industry and see if there's a, a good topic for another exec roundtable, 'cause I'm kinda keen to do one again.
[00:12:51] It feels like time.
[00:12:52] Kym: Yeah. And that, what a timely topic. I mean, it is, I mean, AI's everything.
[00:12:58] Lucy: Yeah. But m- my kind of, my hypothesis, and I need to check with my friend, is knowing that industry is very, very ruthless and it's very hard, you know, hardcore is, are people just working even harder and being expected to do even more with AI? This is my question and my kind of
[00:13:14] Kym: a good question. Oh my gosh, yeah. Oh my gosh. We- I should have you on my other new podcast where we're talking about a lot of AI stuff.
[00:13:22] Lucy: Oh, definitely. Yeah, hit me up.
[00:13:24] Kym: Yeah, I will, because yeah, that, that's a super interesting question. And yes, I mean, it's like you've gotta be even better now, yeah, in
[00:13:31] Lucy: I know. I feel like this world is so messy that like when we should be going to like a two-day week, suddenly we'll have to do more and like, you know, our, our business objectives will suddenly... I, I don't know 'cause I'm not in corporate anymore, but I imagine that, that people are looking at workflow and thinking, "Well, you used to have to do 10 reports a, a year, but now you can do 700."
[00:13:50] Kym: Yeah
[00:13:50] Lucy: so
[00:13:51] Kym: can't you do 700? You know, why can't you, why, why can't you see 500 clients? Yeah, exactly. Oh my gosh, that is such a good point. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So gosh, there's just so much I wanna ask you about, like, 'cause you've got family life, international work, your husband. You know, I guess you're in that area, right?
[00:14:08] 'Cause your husband is working as a teacher, right?
[00:14:11] Lucy: Yep.
[00:14:12] Kym: so you know, I guess you've had to adapt to life in Southeast Asia and all of that, and it's... I'm sure it's wonderful. I mean, anytime I hear anybody in Southeast Asia they're like, "I love it here." So yeah, I mean, what's life like, and what's like time zone management like?
[00:14:27] 'Cause I'm hearing you, right? I'm like, okay, UK, Australia, you've got people in California. Like, how do you even make sense of that?
[00:14:34] Lucy: Yeah. That it-- Well, do you know what? Time zone maths is my least favorite thing. I hate it, and yet I have to, you know, I'm so... I know, I'm so manual with it. Like, I have to ch- One day, one year, I was doing some IFS training in, on the East Coast, and in the e- my husband and I were both doing it, 'cause he's also very interested in mental health with his
[00:14:52] Kym: Okay. Oh,
[00:14:53] Lucy: And he was doing a m- a morning training, and I was doing an evening one, and we could not work out for the life of us who was gonna have to get up earlier and go to bed later. We had to wait. We waited until the day, and then we were like, "Okay, I lost. You won. I'm getting up earlier. You're getting to go to bed earlier."
[00:15:09] It was crazy because we couldn't figure out that future thing. Like, I- maybe there w- there wasn't as much AI then. It was a couple, about four years ago. But yeah. No, sorry. So you're in terms of living here, like, it, yeah, I mean, I sometimes joke and say it feels like life on easy mode because there's so many beautiful things about being here and feel so incredibly lucky.
[00:15:29] I mean, if there are always challenges, we moved in COVID with three l- with three quite young kids. Ele- they were at the time 11 whilst we were in a quarantine hotel for 15 nights, which was actually amazing, but seemed like it was gonna be awful. Yeah, it was... We weirdly look back on it now with very tinted spectacles 'cause it was just being holed up together.
[00:15:48] Yeah, so w- they were 11, 8 and 4 when we came out here. So it's been a big adjustment for them, but they've thrived through it. And that's been amazing. And then just the travel opportunities, like we are so well-placed for, you know, incredible adventures. We've been to Cambodia, Laos, we've been to Singapore, Japan twice, which is like a dream come true for me.
[00:16:09] Kym: Oh. Oh, wow. I hear that over and over about Japan. Yeah
[00:16:15] Lucy: Oh, it's amazing. I'm very-- It's like my sort of soul place. Just feels something different when I go there. Really, really love it. So yeah. Yeah. So it's been incredible and I think like, you know, it, it's a very easy lifestyle. It kind of reminds me of a bit of a like New York lifestyle in that you can get what you need when you need it.
[00:16:33] There's always a solution, except the solution is a lot cheaper. So, you know, you know, life, y- you kind of... I always say like if you make a mistake here, you're not-- there's gonna be a solution and it's gonna cost you about, you know, 20 bucks equivalent, right? Whereas if you make a mistake in London, you know, and your car gets towed, you're looking at 600 pounds and like a really stressful day.
[00:16:54] I say that from experience. We parked in the wrong place at, at, at this incredible huge market and thought, "Oh my God, our car's surely been impounded. We've completely parked in a, a wrong space." And no, they just like carefully like moved it, I don't know how, to a different spot, and then they took a photo of us with it and we thought, "Surely there's a ticket coming."
[00:17:11] No, I think they just thought it was like an amusing, you know, event with the foreigners.
[00:17:16] Kym: Yeah. Oh my gosh, that is funny. Oh my goodness. Yeah, I, I bet it's just totally amazing living over there. So what do you do with the kids? Like, are they in some international school or homeschooling, or how do you, how are you all managing that?
[00:17:30] Lucy: So my husband's job, I don't know if I-- yeah, I said he's the deputy head, and the kids go to his school 'cause it's a through school, which is pretty amazing. I mean, again, has its challenges having your dad be on the management at your school. But I mean, my, my husband is wonderful and he is very-- he is an incredible father.
[00:17:46] He's very close to his kids, so it does work really, really well. And it gives you that sense of community from the get-go, which was really appreciated, I think, for all of us. But yeah, so they do a British curriculum and they-- but yet they're at an international school, and it's a, it's an interesting world.
[00:18:01] It's like quite interconnected world and some suddenly, you know, we know people all over the place who move on or come out or, you know, connect. So it really helps you feel like you're part of that international traveling kind of community. But yeah, I mean, people here do, and lots of people in Southeast Asia do homeschool.
[00:18:18] And I think it's because the price of international school is extremely high,
[00:18:22] Kym: Is it? Oh,
[00:18:23] Lucy: yeah, these good ones. So, we're very fortunate that that's part, you know, most of it's covered by my husband's package. But yeah, we're in a very, very, very fortunate position, and I think even like four years on, my husband and I make sure that we kind of feel that gratitude 'cause I think it's very easy to, what's it called?
[00:18:40] Hedonic adaption. You know, it's very easy to just think, "Oh, well this is nice and it should always be even nicer." And actually we're like, "No, let's ground ourselves." We cannot, you know, forget how lucky we are and we have to kind of, you know, really, really bring that into our day-to-day, and it's, it's easy to do so, you know.
[00:18:56] Kym: Oh, I love that, the hedonic adaption. Can we talk about that for a second? I mean, I, that's, I, I, it, it's such an interesting concept, you know, 'cause I, I talk about that a lot. It's like Ken and I, right, we, we've gotten in this place now, if we're somewhere for too long we're, like, ready to go. We're, like, bored with it at that point, you know?
[00:19:13] 'Cause it, the hedonic adaption really, it's just like we've gotten used to this like, okay, what's the next shiny thing that we're gonna move on to, the next place that we're gonna go? So I, I just think that's an interesting concept. So you're kind of like using some therapisty techniques to be like, "Let's be grateful.
[00:19:29] Let's get grounded. Let's remember why we love this place." Like that kind of thing?
[00:19:34] Lucy: Yeah. I mean, my poor husband, he is like my guinea pig for all my therapy work, including, you know, my main focus now, which is couples work. He's got no hope. I'm like, "Terry Real says this, Relational Life Therapy says this," and he's just like, can we just, can we just talk about the, the, the
[00:19:49] Kym: The weather.
[00:19:49] Lucy: in front of us or the weather?"
[00:19:50] Yeah. But no, I mean, I think I actually, I, you know, I know it from my therapy work and I also know it from there's a guy called Andrew Hallam who wrote some books, another person you should get on here actually called "The Expat Millionaire" and "The Expat-" "The Millionaire Teacher." So it's about like taking control of your, your finances as an expat.
[00:20:07] It's, it's very kind of solid, like Dave Ramsey kind of lev- you know, it's that sort of, passive investing, like across the market. So it's very like historically sort of a good way to invest. Anyway, we're reading his book and he talks about it quite a lot as a way of kind of really encouraging you to, to not always up-level your lifestyle as you up-level your income, you know.
[00:20:29] And I think that I, you know, you talk about your hedonic adaption as as wanting to travel more, and I think, well, that feels very wholesome. That feels like a great use of it. You know,
[00:20:38] Kym: Well, that's good.
[00:20:39] Lucy: it's the more materialistic things that like, that's, you get yourself stuck in that sort of race to the
[00:20:44] Kym: Yeah. Oh, yes. Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, that-- We definitely have mastered the art of we need nothing.
[00:20:53] Lucy: Yeah.
[00:20:53] Kym: Two suitcases basically, you know, and, and
[00:20:56] Lucy: That's amazing
[00:20:58] Kym: need anything, we can pretty much buy it, and we're lucky enough to be able to just buy it if we need it.
[00:21:02] We don't have to worry about having everything with us and, you know, that kinda thing. So yeah. So interesting. Gosh. Now, you know, I'm talking to you, and I'm imagining you're... I don't know if you know anything about human design, but I'm like a manifest- I'm like a generator, right? So I'm always like ideas and bouncing around, and it feels like you've got that energy too that you're like, "I'm gonna do coaching, I'm gonna do corporate this, I'm gonna do these roundtable, executive roundtables," and just like just bringing in work from all angles, whatever your passion is or whatever, like, the universe kinda brings to you.
[00:21:32] It kinda feels like you have that energy to me, you
[00:21:34] Lucy: I, I definitely do. Yeah, you've read me. I'm like a book. But yeah, I, I actually-- I was just having a conversation with my husband actually about this because the, the corporate work will always be part of me and I've got such great like ongoing relationships, so I'll always kind of hone those and keep that networking going.
[00:21:50] But I was saying to him, I think next academic year, which I think always think in academic years being a mom of three I've said, I said to him, "I think I'm gonna experiment with really focusing in," and it's that couples work piece, couples work intensives that's really like kind of lighting me up. So I-- it's funny that you said that 'cause I'm kind of gonna experiment with pulling in a bit even though I absolutely love the kind of spectrum of doing so many different things.
[00:22:15] But I'm conscious like I guess we all are of like the shiny thing syndrome and feeling like, "Oh, I want to try that," and
[00:22:21] Kym: do that. I can do that. Mm-hmm.
[00:22:23] Lucy: Yeah. So I mean, for me simplified is still like, you know, the corporate stuff and then like couples intensives with, you know, some of my ongoing individual clients.
[00:22:31] So there'll still be individual clients. But yeah, just, just kind of what I'm gonna... Yeah, just see if I can kind of have that little bit more contained structure. Having said that, I know myself, so you know, as people come to me and approach me, I think we, you've talked about this offline, but like I do get people requesting a consultation from a business perspective, from a perspective of wanting to know what it's like working in, in Asia from a perspective of wanting to know about IFS or RLT or, you know, how you create an intensive.
[00:22:58] So I'm very, very open to that. But it's not something that I'm actively out there kind of hustling for. I want to really kind of focus on my craft, I think is what, what really feels right at the
[00:23:08] Kym: I love that. I love that, yeah. So what does your intensive model look like right now? 'Cause intensives are so hot. Everybody wants to be able to, you know, do, do like three intensives in a month and then not work, and then do three intensives and not work, you know, like that kind of thing. So I'm just curious, like, how do you have it modeled?
[00:23:22] Because people love to talk about that, you
[00:23:25] Lucy: Yeah. Oh, it's such an incredible concept. So I've been doing intensives for probably about a year and a half, like kind of, intentionally. But prior to that, I really had already been doing like extended sessions as almost a matter of course, because working with IFS and brain spotting and also working with RLT and couples, that extended period of time is gold dust to, you know, the, the impact.
[00:23:52] And to, to be honest, when I do a 50-minute session, or I usually for me it's 60-minute session with a client, I almost feel like I'm giving them a raw deal now. I'm like,
[00:24:00] Kym: I know. Yeah
[00:24:02] Lucy: if you could just extend, and I've had a couple of people where they can't, so, you know, I, I go with it. But for me, that intensive model is so beautiful.
[00:24:09] I'm doing an intensive tomorrow and we'll do three hours tomorrow, three hours Monday, three hours Tuesday. And I, I've, I've done like a pre-session with her. I know what her system is, so this is like an individual person doing IFS and I just know so much will unfold because with IFS, those protectors, you know, the protector parts, if you know the model they are tight and they really want to look after us.
[00:24:32] And so they sometimes are slow to trust and 50 minutes or 60 minutes is not enough for them to really kind of really believe your, your-- you have good intent for them. Whereas in the intensive model, it's incredible. Even like we might do an hour and a half or two hours of, of inside work, we might break for a toilet break and then go back in and something's already shifted because they'll-- you're back and they're like, the part is like, "Oh, this, this person I wasn't sure of, this leader of my system allegedly has come back, has followed through on what they promised and I'm open to it now."
[00:25:04] And it is, it's am- amazing to kind of see it un- unfold like that. And then with couples work, it's like, to me there's so much value in A, spending a longer period of time to really like make that investment in the work to speed it up so you're not stuck in, in stasis for too long. And also with the RLT model, which is why I love it so much with my IFS and brain spotting, the trauma component means that again, you're back in that place where you need time, especially if you're working with two people's trauma and you're working with, you know, two sets of goals and two sets of ways of looking at the relationship.
[00:25:38] It becomes even more important to have that intensive time whenever possible. I mean, it's not always possible for every couple or every client but I do try and sell it in as the best practice and I, I mean that with all my heart. You know, it's not, not a difficult thing to persuade people of when it feels so so right.
[00:25:56] Kym: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I just, I love that so much. So I mean, we talked about so much before we even hit record. Another thing you said, which is so entrepreneurial and I love it, was this little, you're branching out into Insight Timer and doing some, some recordings and that sort of thing. Can we just talk about that?
[00:26:13] 'Cause I think people would be really interested to hear about that and
[00:26:17] Lucy: Yeah.
[00:26:17] Kym: how you're doing that. Mm-hmm
[00:26:19] Lucy: was weird because I, for years-- It's one of those things where I don't feel very entrepreneurial about it. I feel a bit like on the back foot, like, "Why didn't I think of this before?" But I have for years sort of sent people to InsightTimer without massively exploring it myself, like little bits and pieces.
[00:26:33] But I would kind of let set them off on homework like, "Yeah, yeah, you can search for IFS and you can find things." And then sometimes they would ask me for something specific, so I would create a meditation for them specifically and just send it as a voice note, and then like have it on my file for future use.
[00:26:47] And then I suddenly put two and two together and thought, "Why am I not uploading these?" So at the moment I've three tracks and one arou- about to hopefully get approved, and I'm planning to just keep going with that, partly because it's a great little library for me. Yeah. It also feels like because of my corporate work being through outreach and because of my website and SEO being my main way of getting clients, I don't really do social media, which is fine by me.
[00:27:11] It's great. And I don't have to do ton of content, so it does feel as well like a bit of giving back. You know, like maybe I'll get some financial recompense for it, but I'll definitely get like a branding boost and I'll also get like, you know, th- that feeling of like, you know, if someone can't work with me because of fee prices, I can send them to my InsightTimer and say, "Go and have a look.
[00:27:28] I've got, you know, by that point, maybe 20 or 30 meditations. You're really welcome to, you know, use those." So it feels like a really nice kind of option.
[00:27:37] Kym: Yeah, no, that's so smart. Yeah, I, I didn't know that just, not, not to say just, not to minimize it, just anybody, I didn't know that, like, therapists or whatever could just, like, go on there and
[00:27:48] Lucy: Neither did I. Like, I, I didn't really-- And it's, it's a very easy process. So you go on, you log- you register you say you're a therapist rather than a meditation teacher, so they ask for that distinction. I think you can also be a yoga teacher. They ask you to upload your qualifications, so there's a nice you know, a sense check there.
[00:28:05] And if you're gonna talk about something, so obviously mine are like IFS actually at the moment. If you're gonna talk about something, have you got specific expertise in, in that model or in that subject? So again, you submit a bit of evidence, and then each track takes about a week to be approved.
[00:28:18] So it does really feel like there's a human that's like checking through, making sure quality control is there. You can't promote so it's only your name. But you know, we all know that that's, that's enough because, you know, if I, if I see Kim Go- Kim Tolston, I can quickly look you up and find you, you know?
[00:28:35] So it's still great.
[00:28:36] Kym: is this person? Yeah.
[00:28:38] Lucy: I wanna hear this person that's whispering in my ear at bedtime or whatever. But yeah, no, it's, it's been a really nice kind of little sideline and I'm, I'm hoping to keep building on that and just kind of looking at it as a little long-term project.
[00:28:49] Kym: That's amazing. I love that so much. I I've got something dinging on my computer. I don't know what it is. I don't know if you can hear it, but, Oh, you can't hear it. Okay, good.
[00:28:59] Lucy: No, I could hear a little bit of, I could hear a little bit of background noise earlier. Like, it sounded like a tap, a tap running.
[00:29:05] Kym: Yes, yes. Yeah.
[00:29:07] Lucy: Right. That I could hear. You'll probably be able to tune that out.
[00:29:11] Kym: Yeah, yeah, I hope she does. That's my boyfriend, decides to make coffee right in the middle of podcast
[00:29:16] Lucy: Perfect. That
[00:29:19] Kym: But anyway...
[00:29:20] Lucy: family do.
[00:29:21] Kym: Yeah, exactly. It's like, I don't know, we're in this little room together, what can you do? But so anyway, gosh, just a fascinating life that you're living. It's so, so incredible for you to share everything and how you're making it work.
[00:29:32] It's just... I just love, like, the, the spirit of just, like, I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna do this, and now I'm gonna hone in on this. And it just, like, really echoes what I feel like this podcast is all about. It's just, like, being entrepreneurial, following your passions, making it work for your life and how you wanna live it.
[00:29:49] And, you know, and you're doing that, which is just amazing. Yeah.
[00:29:53] Lucy: it feels really good. And, you know, another thing that's probably worth saying is I'm really-- I think coming from the coaching world, moving into therapy, I had a different perspective on premium fees. I did, I did LIM with Tiffany McClain
[00:30:06] Kym: Oh,
[00:30:06] yeah I sort of caught the, the, the virus of worrying about charging when I segued out of coaching and I was, you know, I was reducing my fees and I was like, "Hang on a minute.
[00:30:16] Lucy: What am I doing? I've skilled up and I'm reducing my fees." So that, that's something that's really kind of important to me. And as a kind of connected to that as well is giving myself enough time off. And that's another thing, you know, traveling and living abroad gives us those options. You know, having massage in the afternoon, going for a swim, and not feeling like you have to constantly be hustling and working, you know, 30 hours a week.
[00:30:41] Certainly not what I want to do and, and I'm kind of really passionate about that. That's something else that I do work with
[00:30:46] Kym: I love that. I love that. So how do you work out your fees? I mean, I've heard of Tiffany McLean's program. H- how, d- do you basically say, "This is how much time I want off. This is, you know,
[00:30:57] Lucy: Yeah, she
[00:30:58] Kym: this is how much I'd have to charge an hour," like that kind of thing? And, and then you just, like, "I'm doing it," and then you just wait for the people to come that can pay that, that rate, I guess, right?
[00:31:07] Lucy: absolutely. I kind of incrementally increased from this kind of w- place where I'd lowered my fees and was like, "Why am I doing this?" And also, one of the-- there's a couple of things that came in. Because I love my corporate work and it is extremely well-paid when it comes in, although it's a slow process to get fewer jobs in, if you see what I mean.
[00:31:24] So it might take two years of conversation with someone at a tech company in Silicon Valley, and then they bring you in and they pay you $5,000, you know, like for an, an hour session. So it kind of-- the, the numbers are big, but the run-up is often, although Jessica Lorimer would say it depends what you do, but the run-up is a, a longer, longer thing.
[00:31:43] So but when I was looking at that and then looking at the fact that I really wanted to serve people in a one-to-one private practice way, I thought I have to have these fees be more commensurate. Like, they're not gonna be the same, so that it's not the same model. But I don't wanna feel resentful charging, you know, equivalent of like $120 an hour.
[00:32:01] Like, it just wasn't gonna work for me. So that really guided me. I did Tiffany's program. She has an amazing calculator, which I used. But almost as soon as I signed up for her program, it kind of-- that was the, that was what I needed to go, "Okay, I give myself permission, actually." And then I did a lot of her mi- mindset work and stuff.
[00:32:17] But yeah, it's, it, it's really important to me, I think as well in terms of sustainability. So I really want to keep practicing for a very long time, and I don't want to do 40 hours a week. And so I really kind of am guided by if I get paid a good rate now, I'm not gonna burn out. I'm gonna make a good income and a good retirement fund for my family and college ch- college funds for my children.
[00:32:41] And I'm not going to be resentful and, and suddenly have to stop in six years, you know? So I'm really feel like it's, I'm in it for the long term. And to be in it for the long term we have to think strategically. We have to think in a slightly different way than our field encourages t- us to. I mean, and I come from the UK and I'm also aligned with Australia, and the fees there are very, very low.
[00:33:03] And for me, like I just wouldn't want to do it if it was at that rate. It wouldn't feel like I was being valued for my skills, my experience. And you can give back in other ways, whether that's charity like, you know, we, we support local charities in Asia, or whether that's looking after like, rescued kittens.
[00:33:19] You know, there's other ways to give back, but for me in my work, that's about, you know, that's about the service and the field that I love, and it's about being paid for it really, you know, decently.
[00:33:29] Kym: Yeah. Yeah. And, and taking care of yourself. Yeah, totally. Amazing. Thank you so much. So how do people find you? How do people work with you? They... Cor- corporate people are listening or couples or, or, you know, therapists that wanna talk to you about Southeast Asia and, and your, your help around that, how do they find you and
[00:33:47] Lucy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm quite rubbish on social media, so the best place to find me is either my couples therapy website, which is couplesawaken.com, or my individual website, which is lucyaughton.com, and that also incorporates a, a few pages about my corporate work. So those are the two best places to find me, and then I would say the third best place is LinkedIn.
[00:34:09] So Lucy, Lucy Orton, you'll find me. I think there's not many of us that have the kind of, you know, a, a filled out profile. But yeah, I'm always delighted to connect with people. I love speaking to therapists who might want to refer for couples work, who might want a kind of very-- I, I do the RLT approach, which is very, it's good for couples on the brink, and it's good for like high impact and maybe high conflict couples. So yeah, always up for chatting with people for those kind of referrals. And yes, absolutely, if anyone wants to look at any of my work and talk to me about different perspectives f- from the therapist viewpoint, then I'm very happy to set up consultation calls a- a- and the, the corporate, you know, give more guidance about the corporate work from our field as well.
[00:34:50] Kym: Love that. And what is IRLT? I'm sitting here thinking like,
[00:34:53] Lucy: Oh, R- RLT, Relational Life Therapy. That's my British accent.
[00:34:59] Kym: Okay.
[00:35:00] Lucy: Yeah, Relational Life Therapy, which is Terry Real's incredible therapy mode. Yeah, and he's really, like, he seems to be everywhere at the moment, so I think it's really exploding. His books are incredible. His work is like very dir- it's kind of direct.
[00:35:15] And but what I love about it, it's got the direct psychoeducational piece, it's got a lot of truth telling, and it's got trauma work, so I can really bring in like both sides of, A, my personality and, you know, B, the, the modalities that I think are just so effective. So yeah, RLT. R
[00:35:30] Kym: So cool
[00:35:32] Lucy: for, for Robert or Relational Life Therapy.
[00:35:36] Kym: Gotcha. I love that. Thank you so much. Well, thanks for taking the time today. This has been super interesting, and I
[00:35:42] think it's gonna be really inspirational to a lot of people listening. Yeah
[00:35:45] Lucy: you so much, and thanks for having me 'cause I really love your podcast and I love all the work you do with AI. So yeah, let's, let's chat about that AI podcast
[00:35:53] Kym: I'd love that. Yes, I'd love that. I'd love that so much. Thank you
[00:35:57] Lucy: Thank you, Kim