Figuring out which state's rules apply to your client can feel like a moving target, especially once you're crossing state lines. In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, I sit down with Michelle Burlin, a therapist and attorney who spent months combing through every state and territory's reporting laws so the rest of us don't have to.
She's been practicing for 26 years, mainly in the forensic realm, licensed in Oregon and Alaska. Along the way she went to law school and now runs a forensic private practice where she does risk assessments, expert witness work, and trainings for clinicians. She breaks down what mandated reporting actually requires state by state, what changes when you're doing telehealth across state lines, and why she says to always err on the side of caution.
In This Episode, We Explore…
Connect with Michelle Burlin:
Website: https://veritasconsultingservices.com/ | https://mbhglobalenterprise.org/
Book - A Clinician's Guide to Mandated Reporting: https://a.co/d/00W9SVEf
Connect with me:
Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab
Subscribe to the Podcast:
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Transcript:
[00:00:00] Kym: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist podcast. So I usually always start out and say, "How'd you go from being a typical therapist to a traveling therapist?"
[00:00:09] So today, we have a therapist here with us. She's actually got an amazing background, so I wanna talk about that. She's not exactly a traveler, but we did think that her topic would be helpful to traveling therapists, so that's why I wanted to invite Michelle Berlin here with us today.
[00:00:24] Michelle, thanks for being here. Usually, I always start with that question, and people just kinda start to tell their story. But maybe you could just introduce yourself a little bit, your education, 'cause you're not just a therapist. I mean, you've got all this amazing stuff going on, so we could talk about that a little bit, and then sorta your specialty and how we could help potential traveling therapists
[00:00:44] Michelle: Fabulous. Thank you, Kim, so much for allowing me to be on this podcast. I'm super excited. Although I myself am not a traveling therapist, I am licensed in multiple states. Although what I really wanted to impart to this group and this podcast is my book that I just published that I think will really be beneficial to traveling therapists.
[00:01:07] And it-- what it does is it delineates each state and jurisdiction's mandated reporting standards. So if you are a traveling therapist and you travel or practice telehealth through state lines you do know the state-specific mandated reporting standards because I think that's important to protect your license
[00:01:29] Kym: Yes. And tell everybody, so you're not just a therapist, right? I mean, tell everybody, like, your educational background a little bit, 'cause
[00:01:35] Michelle: Oh, sorry.
[00:01:36] Kym: wrote a book about mand- Yeah. she's a little more qualified
[00:01:39] Michelle: just jumped right in.
[00:01:40] Kym: book about this. could you share that part? 'Cause I think that's so interesting, everything you've done.
[00:01:44] Michelle: Absolutely. Sorry, I just jumped right in there. Um, I've been practicing for 26 years um, mainly in the forensic realm. I practice in Arizona, Florida, and Alaska. I took, I, I call a break in air quotes because law school is not a break, but I went to law school, graduated, and but I did miss the personalization of therapy and treating the individual.
[00:02:10] So I opened a forensic private practice, and here I am. I do a lot of therapy um, sex addiction. I do risk assessments and also expert witness and trainings and consultations. So,
[00:02:25] Kym: That's amazing to me. So, so okay, I just want to under- so you were a therapist first, and then what made you decide like, "Oh, wait, I think I'll go to law school"? Like, how did you, how did you do
[00:02:35] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:02:35] Kym: It's so interesting to me.
[00:02:37] Michelle: Yeah. You know, I was working, again, in the forensic realm. And I, I would testify in court a lot, and I just really enjoyed it. And I was like, "You know what? this could be interesting." And I anticipated practicing law.
[00:02:54] And while I think it's interesting and super valuable, like I said, Kim, I, I miss that personal- personalization and seeing the progress of the individual heal core wounds. And so I decided, "Okay, how can I combine the best of both worlds?" And so now here I am. Yeah.
[00:03:14] Kym: So you, got the law degree, but you're still practicing mainly as a therapist, but you're doing the the evaluations, which is really cool 'cause then you've got that legal perspective already. Yeah, like on top of just being a, a clinician that's doing assessments. Wow.
[00:03:27] Michelle: Yes, I, no, I really enjoy it
[00:03:29] Kym: that's amazing. So I wanna talk about your book and everything, but also you know, before we hit record, I was talking to Michelle, 'cause with this podcast I always try to, like figure out an angle, right? Like, we're the Traveling Therapists, like, how can we help the traveling therapists be more successful?
[00:03:42] So the court assessment piece, like, I'm super curious about that. are they usually like clients that come to you and, like, you're, and they, they need an assessment, but then they continue to see you for therapy? Or are you like doing one-off assessments as a business, if that...
[00:03:58] Like, like peop- like people out there in the world know that you do these asse- like lawyers maybe know that you do these assessments. They send people to you, you do the assessment, you go to court, and then you're done with the client. Like, I'm curious how that works because it seems like traveling therapists, like they were doing assessments and licensed in like five states, right?
[00:04:13] They could just like travel around, maybe go do a court appearance, live in that state for a while. Like, I don't know. It just seems like a interesting take on this, this thing, you know?
[00:04:21] Michelle: Yeah. A- as long as you're licensed in the state, you can practice, and that includes assessments. So with that being said, yeah, trav- traveling therapists can absolutely do assessments. I do get my referrals mainly from attorneys or probation officers. So the court or probation calls me or emails me, asks me to do a sexual risk assessment or, or a threat analysis assessment.
[00:04:50] Those are my two assessments I typically do. And then I do them, and yeah, write up the report
[00:04:57] Kym: That's amazing. Did you, did you do these assessments before you became a lawyer, or did they come along after when you were like, you know, "Maybe I'll just start doing this, these, these full assessments"? Or was that, were you just already doing that and then you thought you'd become a lawyer too?
[00:05:13] Michelle: Yeah, no I mean, you don't have to have a law degree to do assessments. I know pl- actually I'm the only one I know with a law degree doing assessments. So, absolutely, cli- clinicians do assessments all the time. And depending on your state laws, and this is where, you know, if you travel or practice in multiple states, you do have to look at the state specific statutes too, to see, with your degree, what assessments you are able to do and what you're not able to do
[00:05:43] Kym: Yeah. That's so interesting. Maybe we could talk about that, 'cause that starts to dive into your book and what your book's about and all that. So how does one even find that out? Like, I'm an LCSW licensed in Virginia, right? I'm just curious. And I don't know if your book gets into that part of it.
[00:05:59] Yours is more mandor- man- mandatory reporting stuff, right? Okay. So I don't know how much detail you know about that, but, like, how would I figure that out? Like, what kind of assessments can I do? 'Cause, like, when I think assessment, I think psychologist, right? And not therapist. So I don't know.
[00:06:14] Michelle: Right.
[00:06:14] Kym: curious about that.
[00:06:15] Mm.
[00:06:16] Michelle: Yeah, no, and most people do. What I, what I would tell people is, you know, one of two pathways. Number one, you could just call your board directly from the state that you're, that you want to do the assessment in. So like Oregon, call the Oregon Board LPC social workers, psychologists.
[00:06:33] They will know or, and/or they will direct you to the state specific statute that delineates, yes, psychologists can only do, you know, duty or fitness to duty assessments or competency assessments. But, but plenty of clinicians, LPCs, licensed social workers can do plenty of assessments too. Yeah. Like mental health, integrated assessments.
[00:06:59] Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:07:00] Kym: Yeah, it's so interesting, 'cause I see that come up in the group, the Traveling Therapists Face groups, Facebook group sometimes. Somebody will say, "Well, are you guys doing like immigration assessments? Could I do that abroad and just specialize in that?" So I always wonder about that.
[00:07:11] It seems like it'd be a good, like income stream for therapists, 'cause you don't have to follow the client after that, right? You just do the assessment and the report, and then you're done. Okay.
[00:07:21] Michelle: you're done. You're done with that service. And then depending on your recommendations, yeah, the probation officer, the attorney takes it from there
[00:07:32] Kym: Wow. And d- for you, I guess, it, does it always include like, "And we want you to show up in court and, you know, support your findings," like that kind of thing?
[00:07:42] Michelle: Typically, I mean, it can. The report is used in court and, and i- if you're deemed an expert witness, then absolutely you could testify. Or, you know, as an expert witness, you can also write your report and not testify as well. But yeah, absolutely they use it in court proceedings all the time.
[00:08:02] Kym: Oh my gosh. And you guys, before I hit record, Michelle was telling me about this, and I'm like, "That is my ultimate nightmare," to be called to court, to be called to court as an expert witness. I told her I would probably cry for, like, two weeks before I even had to go, and she was like, "I love it." She was like, "I was in there yesterday.
[00:08:22] I love it." I just think i- i- it takes a special person, like, just I think it's amazing that, that you love that and you're doing that. I really
[00:08:30] Michelle: Yeah, well, thank you. I actually do, you know, and I'm shamelessly gonna plug this into you, Kim. I hope that's okay. I, I have and I'm an approved NBCC provider, so I can give out continuing education credits, and one of my courses is a four-hour course in how to become a successful courtroom witness for fact and expert witnesses.
[00:08:55] So, yeah. A- and that's not state specific, so if you're interested in that or anyone's interested in that, they're more than welcome to contact me. Yeah. And so I have
[00:09:06] Kym: You've gotta give me the... I don't know if I have the link. You've gotta give me the link to that so I can put that in the show
[00:09:10] Michelle: Okay. Yeah, and it's just on my website, but I'll, I'll, I'll give that to you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah
[00:09:18] Kym: all of this history and everything you're doing, it, I'm assuming is what kinda led to the need for this book that you wrote, right?
[00:09:25] Because I guess you have to know this stuff for what you're doing, so maybe we can talk about that.
[00:09:30] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah, sure. And actually, this book, I was actually working on another book for years. That's embarrassing,
[00:09:38] Kym: Oh.
[00:09:39] Michelle: but I haven't published it yet. It's on for clinicians how to treat sex addiction. I was doing a mandated reporting, just a one-hour quick lunch, you know, lunch and coffee kind of training.
[00:09:50] Just come in for an hour and then leave. And during that training there was so much interest and questions that I'm like, you know what? I should publish something that, that delineates a- and actually combines all of the US states and territories' mandated reporting laws into one comprehensive reference.
[00:10:10] And it just started from there, and I completed it within three months, and here we are now. But I think it's, I think it's really useful because now, you know, psychologists are part of the PsychPact. And social workers, at least in Alaska, they're just part of the Social Work Pact now. And I think to protect your license and for risk mitigation, it's super important to know each jurisdiction's mandated reporting standards so you could read and interpret statutory language which I know is not fun for everyone.
[00:10:44] It's fun for me.
[00:10:46] Kym: Well,
[00:10:46] Michelle: But
[00:10:47] Kym: it's amazing. Yeah, like I've got a, a friend, Dr. Lisa Lovely, she's got a group practice. I mean, I think she's got clinicians in 47 states or something like that. Like, like could you ima- I mean, I, well, I'm sure you can imagine, but like a group practice owner, multi-state group practice owner would really benefit from something like this, like a very clear-cut, like here's what you do in each state.
[00:11:11] Wow.
[00:11:12] Michelle: And actually, and with that being said, I actually last... Was it last week? I think it was last, yeah, last Wednesday, I gave a group consultation. I was invited to talk to a group practice that does have clients come because they're private pay, so they come for a specialized intensive, week-long intensive from all states.
[00:11:33] And so I did a consultation on my book. They purchased copies, but also I explained statutory language and how to interpret the standards. So yeah, that was fun. Yeah, I guess they had, they have clients from all states too, so yeah, that
[00:11:50] Kym: So tell us, I'm a, I, I'm a little rusty with, I have like three therapy clie- well I a- actually two now, two therapy clients, you know, and there, there's no situations with them I can think of that maybe a mandatory report would need, be needed. So like what, what are things you would do a report on that you'd have to report?
[00:12:08] And, and like maybe is it consistent for all states? I don't even know. I'm, I'm assuming, but I don't know.
[00:12:13] Michelle: Yeah. Well, I mean, the language is different, the standards of care are different, which I'll get into. But there are s- there are similar, I don't wanna s- themes, for lack of a better word, but categories. Number one, of course, is child welfare. Number two is vulnerable or incapacitated or dependent adults, different states call it you know, term it different terms.
[00:12:37] And number three is duty to warn and protect. And it is different for every state. And so there are a couple different mandated reporting standards that often people see in the language, and one of those is reasonable cause s- reasonable cause. Another one is reasonable suspicion or reason to suspect, or reason to believe.
[00:13:01] So, f- perhaps a statute will say, "If you have reasonable cause to believe a child is at harm," or, "If you have, you know, reason to believe ch- a child is at harm." And I think those are important. In my book, I highlight those in red to clearly illustrate that these are the standards of care. And people often say, "Well, Michelle, what does that mean?"
[00:13:25] What does a reasonable cause, how do you know i- if you have or meet that reasonable cause to make a report? And I say the standard of that is to ask yourself, "Okay, what would a, a clinician do i- with similar experience, education, training, background as I?" And that's the reasonable cause. So, standards are different, Kim, for, like, an intern with limited experience or a 20-year seasoned clinician because that's the standard of reasonableness.
[00:14:01] And a per- with a person similar to my experience, what would they do? And that's the standard. Yeah
[00:14:08] Kym: Interesting. So there's a difference with an intern versus a seasoned clinician? Wow.
[00:14:14] Michelle: somewhat. I mean, I-- Yeah. Well, well, I think the standard of reasonableness is the same, but that's where I think it's important always, whether you're seasoned or like an intern, to consult with either your supervisor or other clinicians. If you have any doubt at if this should be reported or not, I always say err on the side of caution because it's not our job to investigate or substantiate.
[00:14:43] It, it's our job to report and let OCS or CPS or whatever the relevant agency is, or law enforcement, to make that determination
[00:14:55] Kym: Wow. Yeah, that's so interesting. So, yeah, I just have a lot of questions about it. So, 'cause I've, I, I don't know. I mean, I feel like maybe most of us are up to date in the beginning on our license and, like, what the standard is, but maybe if you don't deal with, with situations like that as much. W- and I always struggle with that as a clinician.
[00:15:09] Not that type of stuff, but just like a mom maybe talks about being too strict or, you know, maybe s- y- you know, I always struggle with that. Like, what is the standard there? So just curious I guess what you said, right? Err on the side of caution. I guess that would just be the thing to do always, just err on the side of caution.
[00:15:26] Yeah. Mm-hmm
[00:15:27] Michelle: and that's what I do, and that's what... Because I s- many people come to my trainings, and they're like, "Well, what about this scenario, or what about this scenario?" And I say, "Okay. Well, look at the statute. Look at the language in the statute, and if you believe or are- have any reasonable you know, reasonable suspicion or cause to make that call, just make the call.
[00:15:51] If it's unsubstantiated, then the- then it- it's, it ends there. But it's not our call to make. So again, if we have any doubt, let's just say for vulnerable adults, people are like, "Okay. Well, Michelle, well, what's a vulnerable adult, or, or what's the definition of a dependent adult?" And, you know, I say, "Oh, well, this is where statutory language just comes in handy because it, it, many many if not all states as I did my research, I- I, you know, it was interesting to see different jurisdictions label things differently and define things differently, but many of them have a statute where the definition is in the statute, and I, I referenced that in my book, too.
[00:16:36] So dependent adult, this is the definition of a vulnerable adult or a dependent adult. So we don't have to make that judgment call. It's written in the statute, and like you said, if you have any inclination or suspicion, yeah, just make the report f- and, yeah, let the rest kinda follow. Yeah
[00:16:59] Kym: Yeah, where it goes. So how often do statutes change? I mean, like, one, I'm thinking logistically, like, you just wrote this book. Like, are, are, are you gonna have to keep it updated? 'Cause oh my gosh, and I just don't know, I don't know how often that stuff changes. Or is it pretty much like it's been the same for, like, 20 years in the state, like, kind of thing?
[00:17:17] I'm just curious about that.
[00:17:19] Michelle: Yeah, no, great question. Be- and I did, you know, just, just I put the 26 edition statutes because there might be some changes. Typically, I mean, it takes a lot to th- change or, or add or modify statutory language, so it's not like a yearly thing. But it does happen. And so I wanted, I wanted to note that and maybe make some edits in the book you know, as years come to follow, if there are any changes.
[00:17:49] If there's not, then yeah, it's the same
[00:17:53] Kym: Yeah. Wow. So, it, do you have... Okay, I just, this is probably totally off the cuff, and if you don't, that's fine. But I just wonder, like, since you've looked at all these different states, are there some states where you're like, "What?" Like, "I can't believe this is, this is the statute"? I would love to just, I mean, just this is totally just me being geeky about it, but is, is there, like, one you could share or something that is like, you just couldn't believe it?
[00:18:16] Michelle: Oh, y- you know, yes, I can't remember the certain states because it was a couple months ago, but I remember it because I, I did research, you know, of course, all the states, and then I had to organize it so I researched it again.
[00:18:31] Kym: Yeah, yeah
[00:18:33] Michelle: in some states, I can't really remember, Kim, the specific states, but there were two.
[00:18:38] I was like, "This language is really obtuse." I'm like, "I don't understand what they're doing." And then some states are very streamlined and organized. It... and I can't remember which states were which. But yes, some states in my opinion, have better written statutes than other, than other states. More well-written and defined statutes than other states, and that's where I think either a consultation or asking your board or trainings come in handy because it's really about protecting your license at the end of the day.
[00:19:13] I always, no matter what I do for my clients or risk assessments, I am always like, okay, whenever I write down in a risk assessment or, or in therapy or mandated reporting, I'm like, "How can I defend this in court?" If I have to go to court on this, how am I going to be able to support my decision to call, like a mandated reporting call, or not to call?
[00:19:37] How will I support my decision? And I go from there. Yeah.
[00:19:42] Kym: So smart, yeah. if, if a clinician is sitting with this struggle and they read the statute and it's one of those states that's super obtuse, right? And w- who, who do you get consults from? Like, I mean, obviously you would probably be, I don't know if you do that, but maybe a good person since you've got the legal and the therapeutic background.
[00:20:02] So somebody like you or is there like, like do you call your liability insurance and talk to the legal department there? Like, what do you do? I'm just curious
[00:20:11] Michelle: Yeah, no, all of the above. No. And I, I, I absolutely do consultations individual and for group practices for all states. Your liability insurance, absolutely. There, there's a legal team there. Your board, your state board. So there's multiple sources to go to. And if not one, more than one. Yeah.
[00:20:34] Yeah, because like I said, I, I've-
[00:20:36] Kym: first? Mm-hmm
[00:20:38] Michelle: Um, yeah. Well, I would you know, your board or the malpractice, your malpractice insurance, I think is key. A- and then you could, of course... I think consul- consultation is super important in, in practice and just to get different perspectives and just maybe shed some more insight that you don't think about.
[00:21:01] But yeah, absolutely that's secondary, I think, to talking to your board and your malpractice insurance. Absolutely
[00:21:10] Kym: Interesting. Now, this might be a dumb question. I don't know. I'm thinking it in my head. I, I... When I'm saying it out loud, it might not... It might be dumb. But so does, does the age of consent matter in... Like, isn't the age of consent different in different states, and would that have anything to do with the mandor- mandatory reporting?
[00:21:27] Like, you know, I just wonder how that, that's all connected.
[00:21:31] Michelle: Yeah, no, excuse me. The-- yeah, no, that's a great question because age of consent is fairly different in states. Some states it's sixteen, some states it's eighteen. And yes, it can absolutely affect mandated reporting because what is, what is inappropriate behavior or illegal, I should say illegal behavior with a c- a minor?
[00:21:53] Do they have the ability to have consent in that state? Now, where it gets interesting too is if you are practicing, like if you're a traveling therapist and you're practicing across state lines doing telehealth, what state do you reference the age of consent, right? So if your state is eighteen, but your client's living in a state where consent is sixteen, what, what's the age of consent?
[00:22:21] And so that's becoming a newly y- you know, concern that I hear a lot too in my trainings. "Well, well, Michelle, w- you know, which state do I go off of?" And the answer i- is, is where the state where the client is located. I would also report to my board, like w- with the state where I'm physically located in.
[00:22:44] They're probably gonna direct me to, to the other state of the client because they have jurisdiction and, and the board. So if I'm in Alaska, and I'm seeing a client, let's say in Oregon and there's different statutory requirements, I may contact my board. They may just refer me to the Oregon OCS or law enforcement anyway.
[00:23:07] So but you must contact where your client is because that has jurisdictional agency over, over the, the laws. Yeah
[00:23:17] Kym: That's so interesting. Gosh. Yeah, 'cause my I mentioned Dr. Lisa Lovelace, but she and I did a course together that's multi-state the nitty-gritty of multi-state expansion, and we have a module kind of in there. We don't have all the states or anything like that, but this definitely is a nuance that comes up, 'cause a lot of people will say, "Is it worth it to get licensed in multiple states?"
[00:23:36] And it's like these are the things people don't think about, know, when, when they're doing that. Like w- you know every state is different, so you're gonna have to be up on all of that and paying attention to it. So your resource is fantastic for that.
[00:23:49] Michelle: Oh, thank you. Yeah, and, and I think now especially with the, the compacts going on and, you know, telehealth, like you said, for group practices just maintaining liability over their clinicians. Are there clinicians that they're employing participating or ethically responsible in the state's l- yeah, in the state laws.
[00:24:12] So that-
[00:24:14] Kym: the compact... Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. What were you
[00:24:16] Michelle: no. Go ahead.
[00:24:17] Kym: I was just gonna say, so even with the compacts, it, it probably still follows the same logic, right? Is wherever the client's sitting at the time when,
[00:24:25] Michelle: Sure
[00:24:25] Kym: when you realize that there is an issue, that's what- where you would go first to that state statute.
[00:24:30] Yeah, that makes sense. Okay.
[00:24:32] Michelle: Sure. And, but you have to abide by your board and your state too. So, and that's where knowing your specific state does it, does it clearly expressly state to contact them as well. And every state's different. As I was doing research and write, writing the book, it was very interesting how similar but yet dissimilar states are in their requirements.
[00:24:58] And that's why I think this is so useful, and I, I'm so excited to help others protect their license because I've seen people get in trouble for not making mandated reports when they should have. And that's why I think it's so important that you in your informed consent, I know you don't see many clients, but like a, a, a
[00:25:22] Kym: A normal therapist, yeah, yeah.
[00:25:24] Michelle: a normal therapist cl- clearly states in their informed consent documents about mandated reporting, reference their state's jurisdictions, and maybe if they are doing telehealth and the client's in another state, to add that in.
[00:25:41] But I think it's important to start there so the client knows exactly the boundaries, what you will report, what you won't report. That takes emotion out of it, and this is just, I'm obligated, and this is what I need to do
[00:25:57] Kym: Yeah, yeah. So interesting. Oh my goodness.
[00:26:01] Michelle: Yeah.
[00:26:02] Kym: wow. So okay, so where do people, like, find you and your book, and if they want you to come speak? You know, just where do they go?
[00:26:10] Michelle: Oh, thank you. Yeah, so my website primarily. I am listed on Psychology Today but my website... Should I give the website address for that? Oh, okay.
[00:26:22] Kym: Thank
[00:26:23] Michelle: Yeah, sure. So it's Veritas, so V-E-R-I-T-A-S consultingservices.com. And there you can find my trainings, my consultation, my book. My book's available on Amazon under my name.
[00:26:39] And yeah, like I said, I do trainings and consultations. I do trainings in, yeah, mandated, mandated reporting how to become a successful witness if you have anxieties in the courtroom, whi- which I think that's my most popular training so far.
[00:26:57] Kym: I bet.
[00:26:59] Michelle: And then also sexual addiction how to treat clients with sexual addiction because I think that's I think that's important.
[00:27:07] I think a lot of people maybe treat clients with sexual addiction for like substance abuse or other addictions, and it's not. It's a specialty. So I do trainings, and all of these pages are, are on my website too. Yeah
[00:27:22] Kym: so interesting. So this is, I know we're kind of wrapping it up, but, but I just wonder about with the, with the sex assessments and stuff, what are... I mean, have you had, like, different types of mandated reporting come up when you're doing those assessments? 'Cause I guess, I don't know, are you doing them for, like, like a lawyer, like a defense attorney or, like, a prosecutor?
[00:27:40] Like, I'm just curious about, like, like who's, who's your, you know, customer, I guess, curious about?
[00:27:47] Michelle: Excuse me. No, I, I do. Well, to answer your question, I have. Yes, I have made a- made mandated reporting calls. And even if... oh, this is, this is a fantastic area because clearly the mandated reporting call has been made for me to review the collateral information that with maybe abuse or sexual abuse or neglect.
[00:28:11] I still make that report because in my statute, in my state, it doesn't delineate an age or a timeframe. It doesn't say if it's already been reported, don't report. So even though I know it's been reported, I always make that report and document that I made it, even though I know, you know, the investigation's already happened.
[00:28:30] And so yes, I have made reports, and yes, I frequently do them for, like I said, either the prosecution or office of public advocacy or juvenile probation. Yeah. Different sources. Yeah.
[00:28:44] Kym: So it didn't even occur to me that you might be getting the referral after the mandatory reporting has already happened. That makes a lot of sense. Oh, I see. Always.
[00:28:54] Michelle: I mean, unless they disclose something new, which I also have made reports. That's doesn't happen very frequently. But if it, yeah, if they said something concerning or add on behaviors yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
[00:29:12] Kym: Wow. That's so interesting. Oh my gosh. So are they mo- so I guess, are there mandated report, or are there coming to you after a report well, I'm assuming. I mean, I guess not all reports are true, but I guess they, are they're, they considered, like, sex offenders in most cases that you're doing the assessments on?
[00:29:26] Or 'cause when I thought sex addiction, I don't know, I thought about a husband and wife, and the husband's cheating or something. But I didn't even consider it like, you're probably getting it from more of a criminal perspective, I guess.
[00:29:37] Michelle: yeah, and I think, yeah... No, no, no, I think it's important because, yes. So in my practice I do see, like, the general public for sex addiction that's non-offenders um, people, you know, dealing with pornography addictions or compulsive sexual behaviors, even, not even behaviors, urges. A- and maybe they are able to manage it.
[00:30:00] So that's one piece of my practice in non-offenders. My assessments mainly in the criminal and civil court but yes, they, they are in trouble with the law. Their behaviors have been, gotten them in trouble, so sexual problematic behaviors or like I said, threat, threat assessments. Yeah.
[00:30:20] Yeah.
[00:30:21] Kym: amazing. Oh my gosh. Are you ever scared? Are you doing them in the office with, with people? I don't know, I feel like
[00:30:28] Michelle: Yeah, I do. I, I do. No, I, I just... You know, I, I've worked in jails and prisons and, and violent
[00:30:35] Kym: like, "Whatever."
[00:30:36] Michelle: Yeah. No, it, it, it's, I'm, I'm comfortable. I'm always on guard, not on edge, but on guard. I mean, take precautions. And yeah, like, that's where I situate the room. I don't know if you see my chair is closer to the door than the couch that they sit on.
[00:30:51] But no, I enjoy the work. I, I enjoy, Yeah, I, I do. I really enjoy it. Yeah.
[00:30:57] Kym: interesting. Oh my gosh. That's a really neat, neat niche that you've got, so that's, that's very cool.
[00:31:02] Michelle: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you
[00:31:03] Kym: thanks for sharing and letting me pick your brain and all that good stuff and I appreciate you being here. And yeah, if anybody wants to learn from Michelle, everything will be in the show notes, and thanks a lot. I really appreciate it
[00:31:15] Michelle: Great. Oh, awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate this, and it was so much fun. So thank you.
[00:31:22] Kym: you.