Being a digital nomad therapist looks like freedom from the outside: laptop open somewhere new, sessions running from a different country every few months. But the reality involves a lot more paperwork than postcards.
In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, I sit down with Sonia Jaeger, who has been running her practice from all over the world for over a decade. We get into what it actually takes to work internationally as a therapist, from navigating shifting regulations across Germany and France to building the kind of support system that keeps you from doing it all alone.
In This Episode, We Explore…
Connect with Sonia Jaeger:
Website: https://www.sonia-jaeger.com | https://locationindependenttherapists.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drsoniajaeger/
Get 25% off the first payment of LIT Community membership (monthly or annual plan) using the code THETRAVELINGTHERAPIST
Connect with me:
Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab
Subscribe to the Podcast:
Apple iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcast | Stitcher | Amazon | Castbox
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Transcript:
[00:00:06] Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist podcast. I'm really excited to have our guest today, you guys. I can't wait to share her story.
[00:00:14] Kym: Sonia, let's dig in. I always start this podcast out and just say like how'd you go from being a typical therapist to a traveling therapist?
[00:00:22] Sonia: Yes, thanks for having me. So I started with a, basically a sabbatical in 2014, where after finishing my PhD, I decided to take a break to travel the world before I would open up my private practice in Germany where I'm licensed. And while traveling, I met someone who was like, "But why don't you do this online?
[00:00:43] I talk to my psychologist online. You could do this as well." And I had never heard of this. This was definitely not a thing back in 2014, especially not in Germany. And I started looking into it, got curious, and went back to defend my PhD thesis for a few weeks, and then went back to Thailand and decided to give it a go.
[00:01:03] I had planned to give it six months to see if it could work, and yeah, started building, you know, my website, the concept of the online practice, figuring out how to do this within the German legal system where I was still based. so yeah, that was 12 years ago, 11 years ago. And so I've been doing it since then
[00:01:22] Kym: you had, like, no guidance. I mean, now it's like, I mean, it's not easy, but it's so easy to just, like, look it up and how do I do this? How do I become an online therapist? And especially, you know, with the US stuff, but amazing. So tell us, tell us about Germany and the regulations.
[00:01:37] Like, when you started that, like, what did you face and has it changed over time or is it still pretty much, you know, a lot of hoops to jump through?
[00:01:45] Sonia: Both. So back when I started, online therapy was just not a thing in Germany at all. It was not allowed to do it online, and that changed in 2018, but it was still with a lot of restrictions around it. Then COVID happened, and for a while it was very open, obviously, but still complicated. And now it's at a stage where it is possible, but not as an insurance-based system if you want to practice, if you want to travel, because you have to be physically located in your private practice if you are an insurance business.
[00:02:18] Now, I had originally planned to get into the insurance work, which in Germany needs to have to buy in to the... You have to buy a seat, costs 40 to 80,000 euros at the time. It's very restrictive. You have to apply for it. So it's, it's a very different system from the US system. There is also the private pract- or the private health insurance system in Germany, but that's only a small percentage of people.
[00:02:40] And back when I started, the idea in Germany, I think, was that it just does, doesn't work online. And so I very quickly started to look at other countries and at the research and noticed how much further ahead in the telehealth domain some other countries were, and how it is very well-researched at the time already.
[00:03:00] And the Netherlands in Europe were one of the countries that was, were researching it a lot. And what I had to do in the end is that I switched to counseling, which isn't regulated in the same way in Germany. It means I can't work with people with a mental health diagnosis. Now, there's a lot of gray area in that obviously as well, as with every type of law and regulation.
[00:03:20] But you can provide psychotherapy online now in Germany if they have seen someone in person for diagnostics. And so the first sessions basically need to be in person, but they don't have to be with the same provider. So there are ways to do it today, but I just stuck to the counseling because I loved it.
[00:03:40] I realized that it's actually exactly the type of people I want to work with. They don't have severe mental health issues, but they still want a real therapist who has an experience and training and knows what they're doing. And I work with clients all over the world while traveling myself, and I do it in three languages, and it's been amazing.
[00:04:00] Kym: That is so amazing. So you got your PhD, and then essentially you weren't able to use it because you wanted to be able to travel and... Or, or were
[00:04:10] Sonia: German PhD is actually a different...
[00:04:12] Kym: Ah, okay. It's like, does it translate?
[00:04:14] Sonia: yeah, so, let's take a step back. So I'm French and German. I grew up in Germany, went to a French school, so always between those two countries and languages and cultures. And then I studied psychology, what is now the equivalent of a master's in psychology in Germany back then called a diplom psychologist.
[00:04:31] And then another five years of psychotherapy training, which is what gives you the license to practice psychotherapy in Germany. And then I did a PhD unrelated to my therapy work, working in research at a university, mostly at the time because I wanted to move to that city, and it was the first job that was available.
[00:04:50] And I really had enjoyed research as a student, and I thought, "Why not, why not?" And yeah, so I did those, all these different things in Germany, and then I started traveling. And then now I have five different businesses, I think, or I don't know how many. You
[00:05:04] Kym: Oh, wow.
[00:05:05] Sonia: What is a business? What's a project? What's a side income?
[00:05:08] Kym: Yeah,
[00:05:08] Sonia: my-- the core of my business is
[00:05:10] Kym: It all blurs together. Nice. Okay. So, what is the type of research that you would do, like somebody, you know, with your degree that you're practicing under right now, when you're trying to go to Thailand and Australia? 'Cause I know you're sitting in Australia right now. It's like 9:30 PM for you. It's 8:00 AM for me. We had to make that schedule work.
[00:05:28] Maybe for somebody listening that's maybe international or even from Germany what type of research did you have to do or do you still do when you're going to a new place to figure out if you're able to see your clients still?
[00:05:40] Sonia: So one of the great advantages of providing counseling and not therapy in Germany is that it is a lot less regulated. So I have a lot more freedom in what I'm doing, I think in the US a lot of people switch to coaching, which is more different in terms of content, right? the other side of the piece is what is the immigration situation, right?
[00:05:59] And so how much can you work on a tourist visa? Because that's what I've been doing for the last 12 years. I'm mostly on tourist visas. In most countries that's perfectly fine as long as you don't take away from the local workforce. So if I work for my business back in Germany with clients who are somewhere else, that's fine.
[00:06:19] I'm frequently in Australia, where my partner is from, and Australia is a country with pretty s- strict immigration rules, so I do not take on clients from Australia, for example. Australia does not mind me being here on a tourist visa and working with my clients that are elsewhere, but they would not like me taking on Australian clients because I would be taking away from the local economy.
[00:06:42] And that is something that you just, I don't know, figure out over the years of being a digital nomad and connecting with other nomads and, you know. I mean, it was so much harder back in 2015, '16, my first few years. But the other question is always who will actually ask those questions and who really cares, right?
[00:07:00] Like, what are the gray areas that you're willing to navigate? What are the risks that you're willing to navigate? what you do when the laws have not caught up with the life and the work we do? And the reality is that even 10 years ago, there were people, so I mostly work with Germans and French who live abroad, where they don't have access to a therapist, and until people like me started providing this, they just didn't have options .
[00:07:24] It was just bad luck, right? If you live somewhere in Africa where there's no local therapist who speaks your language and you're an expat but have some mental health issues, maybe if you're lucky, your company provides something for you, but maybe not. And so I think therapists have always found ways to make this work because there was also always a demand.
[00:07:43] But it is... yes, navigating laws and regulations is definitely not the most fun part of all of this.
[00:07:49] Kym: I know. I think it, I think it scares so many people and they just don't try. You know? That they, even though they have the passion to travel the world and that sort of thing, they don't try because it's intimidating, or not knowing exactly what's right and what's not right, not being able to find answers. I see that a lot
[00:08:05] Sonia: Now, it also helps that I'm not from the US, and in my country where I'm from, no one does lawsuits of this, the kind you do.
[00:08:13] Kym: Oh, that's a good point.
[00:08:15] Sonia: The risk that I'm taking if I'm doing this is much lower than someone from the US where lawsuits are a common thing. Not that I would say you should start doing unethical and un- illegal things, but it's just also my background is so much safer because this is not something that's constantly happening. still think it's really important to follow the laws and the regulations, but yes, sometimes they're just not really where we need them to be or where the world needs them to be, and they're quite slow to change. The other side of this is, until now, I've kept my business in Germany, so I've been fully digital nomad style, never stayed anywhere long enough to become a local or tax resident.
[00:08:52] I have, during COVID got an exemption to come into Australia at some point and stayed here for more than six months in the tax year. But that was an exception, so it was okay, you know? So, so y- there are a lot of things you need to navigate. It's... I always tell people it's so much easier if you just keep traveling because you can just keep everything in your home country.
[00:09:12] So I still have the same business, the same accountant, the same thing from when I started. I'm currently in the process to actually moving to France. So I just got my title recognition for being a psychologist in France. I already had the nationality, so that's makes things much easier for the actual move, and we have been more and more spending time in France, so I want to move my residence there, my tax residence, my business, and that's a huge process, and I really know why I did not do this until now.
[00:09:39] But I'm at the point where I actually need to do it. It's, it's fine. It's just, you know, one of these admin things that you have to go through at some point when you want to be somewhere
[00:09:47] Kym: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. so getting recognized with your psychology license in France, Are you then able to, like, take insurance in France under that license that you are recognized with now? Or will you still remain, like, this, I guess, counsel- you're calling it counselor, but, like, coach sort of arena when you get into France? Is that just gonna make it easier? Just curious how you'll navigate that.
[00:10:09] Sonia: so there are a couple of different things in there, and one of them is the different market rates. so it's a fun thing when you work internationally. The German standard rate for a therapy session is €100 roughly. In France, it's more like 50 or 60. So I'm not planning on changing anything apart from the paperwork needed.
[00:10:30] I will still keep my self-pay private practice. I will obviously change the name. The invoice will be a different address, th-those kind of things. But I'm not planning on changing anything in my business model because it wouldn't make sense to switch to a system that just has so much lower fees. And same if you work in the insurance, there's very little that gets reimbursed.
[00:10:50] What does change is that so counseling in Germany you need to charge VAT, whereas psy-psychotherapy is exempt from VAT. But as I'm not providing psychotherapy at the moment, I have to charge 19% VAT. In France therapy is more open and easy, so I will be able to provide therapy or name it, call it therapy, and it's VAT exempt.
[00:11:13] So I will-- there will be a financial benefit there. Now, my other businesses will still have to charge VAT because a community or a workshop or, or a, you know. it's a complex system to have a business in Europe
[00:11:26] Kym: Absolutely. Now, do you have like an accountant? I don't know what maybe it's called in, in Germany, but somebody like an accountant that is helping you, like, figure all this out, or are you just doing a lot of the research and figuring it out on your own? You know, I just wonder, do you have recommendations for somebody listening that's like, "That does sound complicated. I don't know how to do it."
[00:11:44] Sonia: Yes. So I used to when I first got started in Germany, I used to do my tax myself. And then once we launched the community, the LIT community for location independent therapists, it became more complicated because it's an electronic thing. It's local VAT where the person is based. It's not like... Yeah, it's complicated.
[00:12:05] And that's the point when I realized, okay, I need an accountant. I don't want to spend my time doing this. And so I've had an accountant now for seven years or something like that in Germany. So they're really good with understanding the difference between counseling and therapy and selling a product online and which VAT of which, and if you're under the threshold and how, like all of these things.
[00:12:26] And I've also always used platforms that do these things for me. So for example, I sell a course for German colleagues on how to do better video sessions and I run that through a platform that will charge the correct tax depending on where they're from and all these things, because that's just...
[00:12:44] Yeah it's too complicated. And also I don't want to have to handle tech issues. I don't want to, you know, if someone needs a refund or if something happens with the technology, I don't wanna be available all the time. And my assistant also, I have an assistant and she also likes to tame-- take time off.
[00:13:02] So do I. And so I try to outsource all of the things that aren't the core so that I can focus on the things I can do best really.
[00:13:11] Kym: I think that's one of the smartest moves as an entrepreneur to just, like, know your zone of genius and then farm the rest out to experts so you don't have to spend a lot of time learning a whole new trade or floundering with things. Yeah.
[00:13:24] Sonia: I think also understanding what your priorities are. So I, so I come from a system in Germany where we have at least six weeks of holidays a year. I took my sabbatical because I knew once I had a private practice in Germany, it would be unlikely to take more than a month off at a time.
[00:13:39] Working online, I now do take about 10 to 12 weeks off a year, and that's a real priority for me. I don't take them like... One month is the longest I do at a time, but I do take quite a bit of time off, both for traveling and for actual holidays. And when I'm off, I'm fully off. I do not check my emails. I don't have access to anything.
[00:14:01] you know, I'm really away from it, and that was a real priority for me. And so I needed systems that would work without me. And it does help that I work with clients who also are really fine if they don't-- I mean, most of them,
[00:14:14] Kym: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[00:14:15] Sonia: it's fine if I'm away for a while
[00:14:17] Kym: I love that. Yeah, I, I talk about that a lot myself. Like, I used to see really intense, like, PTSD and trauma clients. And then when I decided to go all online, I was just like, I need low acuity. I need, like, mild adjustment disorders where they could be fine without me or not , you know?
[00:14:34] It just made my life a lot easier. And you could take more time off, yeah, and, and really live, enjoy the places that you're traveling to, which I think is amazing. Yeah.
[00:14:42] Sonia: And I think that is one of the kind of misconceptions of people going into the digital nomad life is that because you can work from everywhere, you end up working all the time. And the biggest issue or reason why digital nomads stop being nomads is because they burn out.
[00:14:58] They travel too fast. They don't take time off. They don't give themselves and their body time to adjust to a new place. It's really exhausting, or it can be if you don't take care of yourself, and it's the same with being a therapist. I know therapists who see 25, 30, even 40 clients a week. I don't know how they do it.
[00:15:19] I see 10, sometimes 12, and I have many other things I do, and I love the combination of those. And I can take time off more easily because of that as well
[00:15:29] Kym: Yeah. Well, let's talk about that, 'cause that was a mistake I made for sure in the beginning. I was like, "Oh, we're gonna move every week. There's so
[00:15:36] Sonia: Yeah.
[00:15:36] Kym: see. It's so exciting." But I mean, literally, you get to a place, it, it takes a week to even just, like, know where the refrigerator is in a place, you know?
[00:15:45] To even get, like, accustomed to, like, where you're at. So part of what you talk about is, like, when you get to a new place, like, how do you set yourself up for success and to be able to, like, see your first client in that new location? Like, Do you have a process or a strategy for somebody listening?
[00:16:01] Sonia: my biggest lesson learned is to never work on a travel day, and ideally not on the day, the first day in a new location. So even if you think, "Well, I arrive early and I'm familiar with the place," no, no, no. The Wi-Fi might have changed, something else might have changed. Just don't do it.
[00:16:18] Give yourself at least a day to kind of settle in a new place, to set up your workspace, and that's what I do. I will find a space for my client sessions, and I have a separate space for my office work. So I really like physically separating those two types of things. Right now I'm sitting in my client workspace in the spare bedroom in this house we have for these three months that we are here.
[00:16:40] And then it depends a bit on is it a new place or is it somewhere I'm familiar with? So I often go back to countries I've been to already, then that helps because I know how the supermarket works. I know how the, you know, recycling system works, all these things. If I don't know anything because it's completely new, I will definitely give myself more time, or if there's jet lag involved, definitely give you...
[00:17:02] You know. And then, yeah, the physical setting up of the workspace for me is really important. And then one of the things I love is that no matter where you are, your work will be kind of the same. So opening the laptop and answering an email or working on a project or working on something for me is very, very grounding.
[00:17:21] So I used to take a few days off when I got to a new place, completely off to kind of settle in the place, and I realized that for me that was actually not ideal. The better combination for me is to take off from calls and from client work, but to do a few hours of admin or marketing or back-end work, because that is super grounding because it is the thing that stays the same.
[00:17:42] And for me, it reduces the culture shock, it reduces the adaptation issues, because I have a few hours during that day that are just very familiar, and then I will go out and explore, and I will try to understand how the supermarket works and what food I can buy and, you know, all these things.
[00:17:57] And I rarely travel very fast. Like as you said at the beginning, the, your experience of trying to do it too much. So I will try to stay a month somewhere. Also because you get much better deals on accommodation if you stay somewhere for
[00:18:10] Kym: Yes, for sure.
[00:18:12] Sonia: back when I started, the first day was filled with getting the local SIM card, which now I can do before I leave because we have eSIMs.
[00:18:19] You know, but before, few years ago, that required physically going to a shop and buying a SIM card and trying to get it activated, and sometimes that would take the whole day and going back three times because it wasn't working and... So doing all these kind of logistics is definitely part of my setup routine.
[00:18:35] And then Yeah, just living life, like reading the book that I'm reading, you know, just doing these things that are kind of familiar while also balancing that with exploring a new place and enjoying being somewhere different. And I really love working from cafes for my admin work. So I will go to a different neighborhood in that city that I'm in and, you know, work for two or three hours on my laptop and then go out and explore.
[00:19:01] And then obviously I will be at home for my client sessions, but on days when I don't have sessions or half days when I don't have sessions, I really like combining the working and exploring somewhere new
[00:19:13] Kym: Yeah, I, I love that. It's, it just, I feel calm just hearing you say how you do it. Just makes me feel calmer, so I really love that. So let's talk about the entrepreneurial piece, 'cause we talk about that a lot on this podcast. I've got tons of other income streams. I really don't like to be dependent on that one-to-one model, especially for what we're talking about, you know?
[00:19:33] I wanna be able to not see clients for a month if I wanna go to Australia or something. So let's talk about everything you've built, because even when I started this, one of the first touchstones for me was your Facebook group, The Location Independent Therapist. I figured out the online thing by the online therapist group, and then eventually I found yours 'cause I love to travel, you know?
[00:19:54] So let's talk about, like, that evolution, your group and your community, and I think you have a directory, right? You have, I mean, you've got a whole ecosystem that you've created for, to help nomadic therapists, so I'd love to just talk about that and maybe you know, how you built it and that sort of thing.
[00:20:13] Sonia: So Coming back to the beginnings, I think once I had my website, even before I had my very first client, I had a German colleague reach out to me asking how to do what I'm doing.
[00:20:25] And I was like, "Well, I don't know, because I'm just getting started. I have no idea how to do this. Come back in a few years, hopefully."
[00:20:30] But I did very quickly realize that it was very lonely to do this work while traveling. I enjoyed both the work and the travels, but I really needed more support and more community, and so I started looking for them. And I think we started a Facebook group in 2016, ' 17, something like that, I'm not sure.
[00:20:50] Basically out of a digital nomad Facebook group where someone asked, "Are there any other therapists who are also digital nomads?" And then a handful of us were like, "Yes, yes, yes. Hi. Hello." And so we started a Facebook group, and then Melissa joined us, and we've been running it together for many years now, and we very quickly wanted more.
[00:21:11] So we started with a book club. Book club was actually one of the first things we wanted. We both kept talking about how we should read more professional books, but it's also kind of tricky to find the time for it, and then it were lovely to have a book club, but she was living in Spain. She's from the US, but was living in Spain at the time, and then later moved to the Netherlands.
[00:21:29] And so, like, how do we do this? And so we started an online book club for therapists, and then we started a mastermind group to help with the business side where we there were five of us at the time who would meet, I think, every other week and discuss business-related things, how to do all of this online business stuff and entrepreneurial thing.
[00:21:48] And then out of these, we in the end in 2019 decided to create the LIT community. So Melissa and I met 2018 f- in person at a conference in Colombia. It's the first and only time so far that we've met in person.
[00:22:03] Kym: Oh, wow.
[00:22:04] Sonia: that. Yeah. We've been working together for so many years, but yes.
[00:22:08] So we, we were together at a conference for digital nomads, presented on mental health for nomads together, and came up with this idea for the community, which we then launched in February 2020, which turned out to be a very interesting timing for launching a membership for location-independent therapists.
[00:22:24] The travel piece kind of s- was, you know, a bit reduced for the next time for most of our members. But it was an really amazing space to turn to, to have colleagues from different countries working in different modalities and from different backgrounds and different cultures and all of that. And so from the beginning, we had this international online piece to it, and we've obviously grown over time.
[00:22:47] We have a mix of business events and clinical events, so we- We still have a book club. We now also have a movie club where once a month we will discuss a therapy, counseling-related, psychology-related movie or TV show that we've all watched. And we run business coaching events and, social events, all types of things.
[00:23:06] And so yeah, so I've been doing that with Melissa for, for a while now. And then I've also been running workshops and have content for German-speaking colleagues, because I very quickly became the German online psychologist. When I started, as I said, there wasn't really anyone doing it, so within a year, my blog was number one on Google if you looked for a psychologist in Germany who works online. so I've, over the years, had many different things for German-speaking colleagues workshops that I run together with collea- with f-friends and colleagues. I run a workshop twice a year with a business coach in German. I now also have... I host webinars and, you know, all types of things around marketing and being an online therapist.
[00:23:53] I also now have an online course for German-speaking colleagues who just about how to do better video sessions, because there are more and more colleagues joining this online setting, but I also hear more and more from clients complaining about therapists not really being confident with navigating this video setting and this online space, and how to still be creative and authentic, and how to navigate tech issues.
[00:24:20] And at the same time, colleagues don't feel... often don't feel that confident or feel like it's limiting their, their way of working. And there wasn't much in the German-speaking world, so I created some stuff. And so I have the German kind of side for colleagues. I have the international side with the LID community, and then I have the counseling in three languages.
[00:24:38] And yes, it's, it's a complex setup, but it's fun.
[00:24:42] Kym: It is. But yeah, it's fun, right?
[00:24:44] Sonia: Yes, it is. And I'm also not doing it alone. I have an amazing assistant that I've had for many years who does most of my marketing for my, my, my main business. The Lit community, I have my co-founder Melissa, and we have an amazing assistant, Georgia, who runs the day-to-day admin of the community and most of the marketing as well.
[00:25:03] And so we can also both take time off. Not that long after we launched, Melissa had her first child and went on maternity leave. She now has two children. So we've experimented with all types of you know, working as a team in different ways and how, for her, how to navigate maternity and an online business or multiple online businesses, also really interesting topic. And it's been a fun journey. It still is
[00:25:26] Kym: And, and, and don't you have a directory too?
[00:25:27] Sonia: Yes. so as part of the LIT community for members, we also have a directory of location-independent therapists. So it's all members of our community who are on the
[00:25:37] Kym: Oh, okay
[00:25:38] Sonia: For clients all over the world who are looking for a therapist who is familiar with the online work and the international work.
[00:25:44] And so you can also, like, filter by language, and so we have lots of different languages on there, lots of different specialties. And I think we currently have... So not all our members are on the directory. I think we currently have something like 34 or so members on the directory last I checked. And it's really nice, and it's a nice for them, a, a nice way to get more clients obviously.
[00:26:05] But in the end, I would always encourage everyone to just work on their own website and work on their own marketing, because a directory is great, but you don't know how the algorithm is gonna change or what's gonna happen in a few years, and you need to really build your own business in the end if you want this to work.
[00:26:21] Unless you, live in a country where you can do the insurance thing, then it's a little bit different. But for most of us who are self-pay, you need to build up your own system for sure.
[00:26:31] Kym: Yeah, ' when you were talking earlier about, like, that example about there's, you know, a potential client in Africa who can't access care, I was just wondering, like, do you have tips? Like, how do you... how, as somebody like you, do you, are you finding clients out there in the world? I mean, I guess you're just keeping yours restricted to, Germany, right?
[00:26:49] You're just, you're just seeing clients in Germany or are you also seeing clients around the world?
[00:26:53] Sonia: They're, they're all around the
[00:26:55] Kym: Just Germany. Oh, they're all around the world. Okay
[00:26:57] Sonia: I have actually almost-- I don't have that many clients who are in Germany.
[00:27:00] Kym: Oh, okay. Gotcha
[00:27:01] Sonia: some foreigners living in Germany who then come to me, or some French people living in Germany and some, But most of my clients live so I think on most continents at the moment, I have clients.
[00:27:11] I have some in South America. Actually, I don't have anyone in North America at the moment but I used to. I have clients in Asia, I have clients in Africa quite a bit, and then all over Europe. And most of my clients have moved at least one or two times in the time they've worked with me, because a lot of them work with me long time, or they come back after a few years.
[00:27:31] And so especially when they know that they will be moving soon or even within a country, right, online is the best solution for them. so yeah, most of my day is basically I'm traveling, but then also I'm traveling through my clients.
[00:27:45] Kym: Yeah.
[00:27:45] Sonia: I was sharing with a friend today that I have a client at the moment who's applying for jobs in different countries.
[00:27:50] And while I hope for her that she finds the best job in the best country for her, I'm also like, I kind of hope she goes to that country because I've never had a client there, and I've never been there, and I want to learn something about... It's so exciting to learn something about a new country. But it's also interesting to work with clients who are in countries that I'm familiar with.
[00:28:08] And it's one of those things where having the LID community as a support group for myself and peer group, especially supervision group, has been really helpful. Because if I have a German client who, I don't know, lives in Brazil, for example, and has a Brazilian partner, they will bring topics to the session where I don't know, is this a cultural thing or is this maybe that person?
[00:28:32] Or, you know, how does culture play into this? Is this just they're telling me that this is normal in that country, but is that true? So having colleagues who actually are from that country or who live in that country or who, you know, have been there is super helpful to understand how to help my clients best.
[00:28:49] Kym: Yeah, 'cause they could be like, "No, that's not how we do it."
[00:28:52] Sonia: Yeah.
[00:28:53] Kym: That's not
[00:28:54] Sonia: sometimes they can be like, " Oh, no, no, that's very typical for South American men." Like, you know, a G- a G- German is very different from a South American partner, and sometimes they have interesting topics coming up in their relationship. And I also work with couples, so mostly actually German-French couples because that's the two cultures I grew up with and I'm most familiar with.
[00:29:13] And they're fairly similar on a, similar on a global scale, but obviously not that similar. And so it's really useful to work with someone who shares that cultural background.
[00:29:23] Kym: That's amazing. So with all that being said, how in the heck do you manage the time zones? When you have clients all over the world, you've gotta have a system. Tell us your secrets, 'cause when I heard that I was like, "Oh my gosh," my brain started to, to swim. I'm like, "Clients all over the world? I don't even know how I'd manage that.
[00:29:41] If I'm moving, they're moving." Yeah, how do you manage that? What's the system?
[00:29:45] Sonia: well, first it really helps that I don't have too many clients. Then not all of them come every week, right? So there's already... The, the baseline is pretty helpful. And then my clients know that I'm a digital nomad. I've made this part of my brand and my marketing, and I know upfront that I'm going to be traveling, and I will also be in different time zones whenever I know.
[00:30:08] So I try to stay in roughly one time zone for at least a few months at a time. So right now I'm in Australia for three months, and then I will be in Japan for a month, and that's more or less the same time zone, plus minus one or two hours. that's pretty easy to navigate. Then I will be back in Europe, which is a bigger change.
[00:30:24] so I will announce it ahead of time early on. I also use a booking system you know, that manages the time zones. I don't have to do that manually. And I've found that my clients are really flexible, and I try to be flexible as well. And I think I attract the type of clients for whom that works.
[00:30:45] And if someone needs a set appointment at a certain date every time, you know, the same time and date, I just don't take them on. I will send them to someone else. My clients need to sometimes have appointments on different times. What I do is that I work Sundays. So my week goes from Sunday to Thursday, and I always work Sunday evening wherever I am, so that will be European morning at the moment while I'm in Australia.
[00:31:12] And the only time zones that are really tricky to navigate are those where you're, like, 12 hours apart because that really limits, you know, 12 or 13 or 11 hours like we have right now. And as long as you only have a few clients like that... Like, if all of your clients are that far away, it's going to be really tricky.
[00:31:28] But my clients are all over the world, it, kind of works. Like, I feel like it just magically sorts itself somehow
[00:31:36] Kym: That's amazing. Yeah, I love that. What is the booking software you- 'cause I know people listening are probably gonna email me and say, "What is the booking software she uses?"
[00:31:45] Sonia: So I use Acuity. but there are options out there. and I hope to switch to a different one at some point that's not US-based because as someone with a business in Europe for data protection, -- using US software is actually not really recommended.
[00:31:58] So, try to use more European-based things for-- but I don't have a European booking system at the moment.
[00:32:04] Kym: Good. That's, this is great advice. I'm sure it's gonna help a lot of people. Well, thank you so much. So how do people find you if they want to connect with you and, join your community or learn more about what you're doing?
[00:32:14] Sonia: Yeah, so the easiest is my website. I'm not really on socials anymore. I had, I'm on LinkedIn, so you can connect with me there. But we obviously have a Facebook group. We have a paid membership, the LIT Community. You can find all of that on my own website or on the locationindependenttherapist.com community.
[00:32:32] the easiest to reach me is email. I do not check my emails all the time, but I will respond at some point, I promise. And otherwise, come join us in our Facebook group to start with, and then maybe inside the paid community if you're looking for more location-independent community of colleagues and that international intercultural aspect of business coaching and clinical supervision and talks and exchange. Yeah. And, and really we have such an amazing, such an amazing international... Like I, I really love working. I think it's one of the things becoming a digital nomad and leaving Germany in a certain way really helped me think outside the box, because this type of work requires that. But then you also need to surround yourself with people who are doing it as well, because there will be so many people telling you, "You can't do this.
[00:33:25] It's impossible. It's not gonna work. It's not legal." And so surrounding yourself with people who have been doing it, who are doing it, and who won't promise you that it's going to be super easy, because there are so many people out there with the fast success kind of promises. That's just bullshit. But it's possible.
[00:33:43] It's going to be hard work, but it's also going to be amazing, and you don't have to do it alone. So surround yourself with like-minded colleagues
[00:33:51] Kym: Oh, that's amazing. Thanks for taking the time today, and I hope everybody will go check you out and learn more about you. Congratulations with everything you built, and, and continued success in your travels.
[00:34:02] Sonia: Thank you so much. And I'm, I'm glad to hear we could inspire you when you got started as well
[00:34:08] Kym: Yes, definitely. Oh my gosh, yes. Yeah, I mean, I think Facebook groups are terrible in a lot of ways, but they're really good in a lot of ways because like you said, you can see that it's possible. So, you know, a lot of Facebook groups have inspired me for a lot of different things. You know, entrepreneurial stuff, and the traveling, and being online, and all of that has been super helpful. So yeah.
[00:34:27] Sonia: But they can also be very harsh, which is I think one of the reasons why we wanted a smaller, more positive and helpful community and why in the first place we, we started it. Because we're like the tone on this, in these Facebook groups can sometimes be really, really ugly.
[00:34:41] Kym: Oh, it kills me. Yeah,
[00:34:43] Sonia: I love how in, how in our lit community you really see people just sharing their struggles openly and everyone jumping in to support them.
[00:34:51] And I think that's the kind of space we usually create for our clients, but we often don't have for ourselves. So I think no matter where you find that, whether it's in our community or somewhere else, just to anyone listening, make sure you have that for yourself. It's so important to protect our own mental health and then to create amazing businesses that help us live the life we want to live
[00:35:11] Kym: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. That's such good advice. Thank you so much for taking the time today. I hope you guys will check out everything that Sonia offers. It'd be down in the show notes, so you can go ahead and click through to everything that she's put out into the world. Thank you