If you're pre-licensed, you've probably been told that traveling while getting licensure hours is something you can't do. Stay put, finish your hours, then go live the life you actually want. Willow Renée decided she wasn't willing to do it that way.
In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, I sit down with Willow to talk about what it really takes to keep traveling while getting licensure hours before you're fully licensed. She's hit some real roadblocks along the way, and she's refreshingly honest about all of it. If you've ever felt like you have to wait for permission to start building the life you want, Willow's story is a good reminder that you don't.
n This Episode, We Explore…
Connect with Willow Renée:
Website: https://willowreneetherapy.com
Email: willowreneetherapy@gmail.com
Mentioned in this episode:
Facebook post with list of supervisors who support traveling associates: https://www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/permalink/2005318196992541
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling
100 Side Hustles for Therapists (free opt-in): https://kymtolson.kartra.com/page/opt-in-100-side-hustles
Kym's Resources:
Thera AI Hub: https://kymtolson.kartra.com/page/AI-Tools-for-Therapists
Bill Like a Boss (for supervisory billing education): https://kymtolson.kartra.com/page/internsprivatepractice
Coaching with Kym (30-min): https://calendly.com/kymtolson/30min
Coaching with Kym (60-min): https://calendly.com/kymtolson/60min
Connect with me:
Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab
Subscribe to the Podcast:
Apple iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcast | Stitcher | Amazon | Castbox
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Kym_: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist Podcast. I'm excited today, you guys. We have a guest therapist that I want to share her story because this is a topic that comes up all the time in the Traveling Therapist Facebook group, and Willow was kind enough to say, "I wanna come and talk about it on your podcast."
[00:00:20] So Willow, welcome to the podcast. I always start out with that question, like how'd you go from being a typical therapist to a traveling therapist?
[00:00:28] Willow: Well, thank you, Kim. Thanks for having me here. How I went from being a typical therapist to a traveling therapist really started with my trainings. So I originally went into the training field because I fell in love with the Hakomi method, and I felt that for me personally, ethically, I wanted to go and become a therapist.
[00:00:47] So this started out very early where I already had planned out this four-year training in Mallorca that I wanted to do. so after my first quarter in school, I went and I was like, "Okay, how am I gonna..." You know, I went over and I came back and I'm falling in love with Europe. And so I was like, "Okay, I wanna do this.
[00:01:04] How am I gonna do it?" And so immediately, even before I was in my traineeship, I wanted to dig into, like, how am I actually gonna be doing this?
[00:01:12] Kym_: Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. Okay, so in grad school, right? Finish your first quarter and then you're like, "I wanna do this training." First of all, what is Hakomi, Hakomi? I don't even know. I'm probably saying that wrong. Tell us what, what that is, and, like, was it only offered there and that's why you wanted to go over there?
[00:01:28] Or was like, "It's offered here and I wanna go there, Mallorca"?
[00:01:31] Willow: So Hakomi is a mindfulness-based body psychotherapy. I guess, that's the brief, version. And then it's offered in the United States, it's offered in Canada, it's offered all these places. The thing is, I originally have a background in Chinese medicine, and I was gonna go and sorry to throw that curveball in.
[00:01:50] Um, And I wanted to go and become a... Thanks. I wanted to become a Hakomi practitioner while having a acupuncture license and Chinese medicine license. And so I was originally-- Which you can do it both licensed and non-licensed, but where I'm at, they ended up changing the rules. They got rid of that program, and I was like, "No, I'm really passionate about Hakomi."
[00:02:12] And so I was trying to figure out what I wanna do. So long story or short story made long. I went and I did all these little mini trainings, like three-day workshop trainings on intro to Hakomi. So I did them like in California, East Coast, Europe, and all virtual, and I fell in love with the one in Mallorca.
[00:02:33] It's one of the people was teaching it or is teaching it from the very beginning, He's one of the founding people of it. And I was like, "Oh, yes, and I want to embody that." So that's why I chose Mallorca. Plus it's an adventure. My first time out of the country
[00:02:47] Kym_: my
[00:02:47] Willow: when I went there,
[00:02:49] Kym_: that's very cool. So, so you went there, and how long were you there for?
[00:02:52] Willow: So the Hakomi training there is it's four days on, one day off, and another four days. So it's nine days of training time plus travel to and from.
[00:03:03] Kym_: Very
[00:03:03] Willow: I put... The first time it was like a couple days on both ends of the
[00:03:07] Kym_: That's awesome. Oh my gosh, so cool. Okay, so the really unique thing about you is you're not licensed yet, right?
[00:03:15] Willow: Right.
[00:03:16] Kym_: let's, talk about that piece. Like, where are you in your education and your supervision and all that stuff, just to give people a little bit of a background about that
[00:03:24] Willow: So my education, I graduated last April. And so I'm about a year out of school. I have both my associate marriage and family therapist and associate, Oh my goodness, my brain just went blank.
[00:03:37] Kym_: Yeah. that?
[00:03:40] Willow: clinical counseling in California.
[00:03:43] Kym_: yeah. Okay, cool
[00:03:44] Willow: and I've been doing online therapy since the very beginning, all of my training, which is my preferred method of doing therapy, just so I can travel. So all of my training's been online, and that's worked really well for me
[00:03:59] Kym_: so under supervision, it's all been online, but mainly from the US or like how has your story kind of unfolded with this, with the traveling and trying to get supervision and, and all of that stuff?
[00:04:10] Willow: Yeah. So I really lucked out that my very first supervision site, they were okay with me traveling. It wasn't like for me to be out of the country
[00:04:20] permanently or anything like that, but yes, you can go, you can see your client because I didn't have any insurance clients and I think that's where things get really sticky for pre-licensed is a lot of times people are working in agencies that have insurance companies that specifically state clinicians need to either be in the state or in the country
[00:04:40] Kym_: Right, yeah. so the first place was like, it's fine if you travel, but were they like, "We don't want you living out of the country," or were they just like, "Dip in and dip out, we're totally fine with that"?
[00:04:50] Willow: there was no, it's like, "Oh, you're gonna be there? Okay. Are you gonna be still seeing your clients?" Like, you know, so it was very, it was more of a looser kind of site.
[00:05:00] Kym_: That's cool. So that was, like, temporary or, like, what hap- 'cause I, what I'm getting at, and maybe we could just tell everybody, what I'm getting at is you've had some bumps in the road with this. Like, you had this desire to travel, you wanna be traveling, but you've had some things that have prevented it or caused you some major roadblocks along the way.
[00:05:17] Willow: Yeah. So
[00:05:18] Kym_: can I talk about the, the trajectory? Like, it's cool, maybe it's not cool, what do I do? Like, how you sort of went through that part of it?
[00:05:26] Willow: So I left my first site I needed to find a, a site that was more in alignment with how I was wanting to get supervision. Still great people. I'll just put that out there, you know, no,
[00:05:36] Kym_: Yeah. Sure, sure
[00:05:38] Willow: and then so I went and I was specifically looking for my next site to have the ability to actually live and work outside of the United States.
[00:05:46] So I got approval from my next person that um, for a supervisor. However, it went from a yes, and this was all not written down, so there was no contract stating. It was a verbal agreement. I should know better about verbal agreements, but, you know, young and "
[00:06:02] Kym_: Yeah, let's do this," I am guilty of that. I will just, like, jump into something. I'm like, "Why, literally why didn't I get a contract?" There's nothing that says what we're doing. Yeah, I'm
[00:06:12] Willow: Yeah,
[00:06:12] Kym_: way.
[00:06:13] Willow: and granted it's like, so I'm in California, and I reached out to the board and specifically they, they said it's the same rules. I mean, who knows by the, you know, by the time somebody's listening to this, maybe the rules have changed again. but as of the end of last year when I reached out to the board, they're pretty curt with me.
[00:06:32] I felt it was like a one sentence. Like, same rules apply to out of the state. If you're not in California, it's pretty much... It's, um, supervisor based. So that was the key information I got from them, is that your supervisor has to f- feel comfortable for you to be out of the country, and I understand that.
[00:06:49] But so for me and my, and my journey I wasn't getting enough clients from my current supervisor. He suggested I go out and try to find somebody else.
[00:06:58] And he had me lined up to go and interview with people who he knew and trusted. And so I go, I do the interview. She's like, "Oh, we don't allow people to be out of the country.
[00:07:10] So sorry." And then she goes back to my s- current supervisor and is like, "I'm just not comfortable with her being out of the country." And for him, my current supervisor, First, I don't know what exactly was going through his head because I'm not him, so we'll just put that. But from my view is hearing from somebody that he trusted that they didn't feel comfortable having me working out of the country, they took that as like a red flag.
[00:07:34] They then go call the, CAMFT lawyers who then go back, like we've talked with the lawyers like three or four times already, and they're like, "Yeah, there's nothing wrong with it. You're perfectly fine." And then they go and mention, "Well, there's the tax nexus. You've gotta worry about that." And so he switched his...
[00:07:51] Which, so as a future business owner, I can relate, like you wanna make sure you're not overpaying taxes. so now - I'm looking for a new supervisor who will allow me to work from out of the country And but so I can understand, but the thing is, is I looked at the countries that I have, and I'm spending hours and hours trying to figure out how to make it all work.
[00:08:13] And the countries that I'm willing to go to, if I had a, digital nomad visa for, you know, the one year and then was even able to get the second 'cause the place I wanna go is only two years max. it'd be okay as long as I'm not seeing clients in the country. I wouldn't be paying taxes on that.
[00:08:28] I would be paying taxes on the money that I make 'cause it's worldwide income that would get taxed, but it would be my employer would not be the one with that tax burden. there's even ways to go and get like lawyers to write something up so that they have like a little bit of, "No, this is..." You know, just for the legal side of things.
[00:08:47] So there's ways to work around it, but to not go through and, and look at all of the what's actually there versus hearsay is, is challenging.
[00:08:57] Kym_: Oh my goodness. Yeah. And then to have your supervisor be like, "Yeah, I'm cool." And then like they're like, "Wait, maybe I didn't think all this through. My colleague's like not gonna do it. Maybe I just should say no and not, probably not even put the time and e- effort to like research maybe even." I mean, I'm not saying they didn't, but like I could see how it would go that way, you know?
[00:09:17] Willow: Yeah. And for me, the burden of finding out everything has been on me. which is understandable 'cause I'm the one that wants to go and do all of these things.
[00:09:25] Kym_: Yeah, right. But it's good that you've got that informa- I mean, at least you're talking about it here, you know, so people can understand, like even if the tax thing comes up, at least like actually no, this is how it works. Because where were you looking to go for two years with the
[00:09:38] Willow: So two years was Brazil. And originally I do wanna get to Portugal just 'cause that's the country I fell in love with, but maybe I'll fall in love with Brazil. But I figured time zones while I'm like having to do on somebody else's schedule to see enough clients, I figured time zone-wise it's only four or five hours in Brazil versus the eight to nine hours in Portugal.
[00:09:58] Kym_: Now, was the current supervisor insurance-based or no? so that, was that not a question? Oh, both. Okay. Okay
[00:10:05] Willow: so, so that's-- I think that's the-- For the one that I interviewed with, the new person, she was mainly insurance-based.
[00:10:14] Kym_: Okay
[00:10:15] Willow: I've never had an-- Well, one time I had an insurance person for sessions, and that was it.
[00:10:20] Kym_: okay. Then they're all just, like, private pay aside from that. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. so for those of you guys listening, if you're maybe somebody that's thinking, "I could supervise, I wouldn't care, but I am insurance-based," and that's kind of freaking you out a little bit, You can bill for what we call, like, pre-licensed clinicians. I'm just doing a little education right here. Pre-licensed clinicians, if the insurance companies agree to it, but then you have to check with the insurance company to make sure that anybody you're billing for is allowed to be located anywhere, 'cause some of the insurance companies won't let you be outside of international.
[00:10:54] They won't let you be outside of the country, and I think Blue Cross Blue Shield is the biggest one that we see that with, but some of the other ones have that restriction, too, like Medicare, that sort of thing. You can't do supervisory billing with Medicare anyway, but it's a whole thing. I'll even drop some educational material under this episode if you are a clinician that wants to, like, figure out the nuances of that, the supervisory billing for somebody like Willow that might come to you and say, I wanna do this.
[00:11:16] Can you do it?" If you're like, "I have no idea. I don't know what to do," there will be a resource under this video that you can check out if you wanna learn more about what that means, supervisory billing. Okay. So with that being said, you told me a really cool story before we hit record about, like, how you're going about this now, like trying to find a new supervisor to help you and some resources you found.
[00:11:37] So maybe we could talk about that a little bit 'cause I, I just love that story so much.
[00:11:41] Willow: Yeah, I'd love to. Well maybe, should I just share this story just
[00:11:45] Kym_: Yeah, that'd
[00:11:46] Willow: storytelling sake, I guess?
[00:11:48] Kym_: it.
[00:11:48] Willow: So, on my recent trip, not even a month ago I was in Portugal, and I had scheduled a, well, I had s- supervision scheduled, and with the intention of talking about my moving abroad. so I go in, I'm all, you know, I'm like, "Okay maybe I should just be willing to let go of, of being out of the country right now and just focus on getting my hours so I can leave."
[00:12:11] And so I go into the, the supervision being like, "Okay, you know, I'm willing to, pause the international travel for now, aside from doing the, the trainings." And he's like, "Oh, well, actually, we need to work on transitioning out from working with the practice. We're just not getting enough clients for you to, you know, for it to be helpful for both of us."
[00:12:33] So while I appreciated that, that was not what I went into supervision expecting, and I spent like the next rest, well, the rest of the evening and, and really the next day when I was going from Faro, Portugal, to, I ended up taking a flight to Valencia. And then I had, I was taking a ferry from, Valencia to Mallorca.
[00:12:54] And there was this blackout time for me of internet because there was no in... Well, I don't wanna pay $20 is what-- I don't wanna pay $20 for internet. so I went to bed feeling really kind of like down and depressed, like, "Okay, what's gonna happen next?" Like, I don't even know. And I go and then land six o'clock in the morning in Mallorca, and it was really interesting 'cause then I go and I finally get internet back, and I'm looking, and I got these messages, Facebook messages.
[00:13:22] And it's somebody from the Traveling Therapist Facebook group that messaged me. Because before I went to bed, I, and before I lost my internet connection, I messaged about my situation of, "Oh, I had a supervisor, but then they changed their mind on me, and now I'm trying to figure something else out."
[00:13:38] Kym_: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:39] Willow: Anyways, this woman reached out, not even in school yet, but she's already planning on how am I gonna go and be living out of the country. And so she wanted to talk with me more. We end up text messaging for a good long while, and then she's like, "Oh, I found..." It's from about four months ago. It was a list of, it-- The post said something, I might be misquoting it, but it was like Who is interested or available to supervise associates with them out of the country?
[00:14:07] List your state and, you know, information." And so from that, a long list of people from all over the country listing that they're interested in supervising And so that was like a relief. It was like inspiring, like hope again. Like, okay, maybe I shouldn't just give up quite yet on going and moving abroad while getting still under supervision.
[00:14:26] I spoke with a couple of really great people. Unfortunately, as in California, you have to be a W-2, and the people that I-- Well, one person said that they don't have the W-2 capacity 'cause of where they're at in their business model. One person was willing to, but they're in another state, and they're, they're trying to get me hired in their state, and I was thinking of, well, can I get licensed?
[00:14:48] But then because they're a different license from me in that technically it's a territory I wouldn't be able to go and work 'cause I was thinking of uh, Puerto Rico. But different rules and regulations for getting pre-licensed there.
[00:15:02] then another woman I spoke with, and last I heard they were looking...
[00:15:06] they were talking with their accountant to see how to become to be able to hire, if they could hire a W-2 with their business, and also they- they're interested in becoming a, supervisor. So all of that together, I haven't found anybody yet, but, you know, there's these options and, and possibilities. But it was great just like reading through and seeing all the different people that are willing to.
[00:15:28] And if you're a Ten ninety-nine in other states, it seems like it might be a little bit more easier than if you're a W-2. But I'm not giving up hope yet
[00:15:36] Kym_: Interesting. So, I'm not familiar with this. So like if you're like working towards your licensure in California, you can have a supervisor in a different state?
[00:15:43] Willow: Well, my current supervisor moved out of state, and my, other supervisor, I noticed they also moved out of state.
[00:15:50] So there's two pathways I, I looked into. One is, you know, go through a California business with a California, or with a supervisor that's licensed in California and licensed, or, and able to give supervision. Your supervisors can be out of state while working for the, the California business.
[00:16:05] Second option, get out-of-state hours. So that means going and getting like pre-licensed in another state, collecting hours, and then transferring those hours. And there are some, Like you can't just do necessarily any kind of hours. And when I say any kind of hours, what I've noticed so far is that it has to be within, like it has to be like legal and ethical hours gained, so you can't be taken advantage in another state, so to say, or not, not legally working for a company in another state while gathering your hours.
[00:16:37] It has to be, you know, um, at least this is my, my understanding from my
[00:16:41] Kym_: Yeah, no, it's fascinating to me 'cause like I, I mean, I think about these nuances and I'm like, I literally have no idea 'cause I do nothing with like supervision or anything like that, so it's kinda like a mystery to me too.
[00:16:51] Willow: yeah. So basically, if you go into another state and are able to become you know, pre-licensed in another state, there are ways to take those hours and apply them to California licensure, as well as taking California hours and applying them to other states. Um, But you gotta just follow, their list of requirements
[00:17:09] Kym_: Yeah. Okay. You know, I just love your, like, determination with it.
[00:17:14] Willow: I'm stubborn
[00:17:16] Kym_: You're like, "I'm gonna figure this out." You're not a Taurus, are you? 'Cause that's me. I'm like always
[00:17:21] Willow: No, Aries rising.
[00:17:22] Kym_: Okay, all right, yeah. Like, I'm never gonna take no for an answer. Like, I'm always, I'm gonna keep digging until I can get the way I want it, you know? I've always been like that. But I love it because it, it sends a message to anybody listening, you know, that might be like, all right, well...
[00:17:36] 'Cause I, I know you probably see it in the group. I see it in the group. People are like, I can't start yet, you know, 'cause I've got two years that I've gotta, like, work towards my license- licensure hours before I can do anything," you know? so I think it's inspirational. Even though you don't have an answer yet, I think it's inspirational that you're like, "I'm gonna figure out a way to do this and still be able to travel."
[00:17:56] Cause what do you have, like a year, I guess a year left before you have all your hours or? Oh, you're like, "No."
[00:18:03] Willow: I, I've been seeing, like When I was a trainee, I got clients. When I became an associate and, you know, the increase of rate and then like, yeah, no, I'm... I still have maybe a year and a half. We'll just put it that way, if, if I get a full caseload.
[00:18:20] So I'll have about a year and a half still. Cause I wanna be able to go and be a, an, what is it, an assistant in the Hakomi in Mallorca at some point because I'm... And I'm finishing up that, the four-year training, or I guess it's three and a half now they changed it. I'm finishing that up in October, and so I wanna be able to k- continue going there 'cause I love it there.
[00:18:39] And I love the people. I feel like I didn't answer a question. Are
[00:18:43] Kym_: No, that's, that's okay. I mean, you did. you're just trying to figure it out it sounds like to me,
[00:18:47] Willow: Yeah, I'm trying to figure it out.
[00:18:49] Kym_: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:49] Willow: still wanna do it. I mean, ideally. Anybody listening to this and there's time before before I actually find somebody,
[00:18:58] Kym_: Willow needs a supervisor.
[00:19:00] Willow: I need a supervisor and a job. Yeah, 'cause I have, I already have a friend and stuff to go and move with, so it's just like to have everything hinging on this one piece, it's like it puts the, like, fire under me, so to
[00:19:13] Kym_: so to do the Hokami, it, I'm probably saying that wrong, but the Hokami piece, you have to be li- like a licensed clinician to be able to do that in your life? Like, if you wanted that to be, like, a business model?
[00:19:24] Willow: no. So, so Hakomi's pretty great. So it is a psychotherapeutic model. It's kinda like how I think IFS used to be anybody could go and take the training, and then they're, now they're kinda more gate... I'm saying gatekeeping. Sorry. Yes, it's being gatekeeped. Things are being gatekeeped. I understand that. They're making it more where you have to be a, a clinician or on the, a student, like, on the licensed clinician path.
[00:19:47] There is this big movement, but you don't... I know people who have been, you know, meditators, Ayurvedic practitioners in the Hakomi trainings, not the one that I'm in, but, like, in some of the other trainings that I've met. So you don't have to be a licensed professional, but there is a licensed professional track.
[00:20:05] It is geared towards people there. And then to kind of, like, if you fall in love with it and you wanna eventually be able to teach it as a trainer, you do have to be a licensed professional
[00:20:17] Kym_: Okay. Yeah, 'cause like, Coach Kim is coming. I'm like, "Wait, but you don't have to do that, right? You could start another business or income stream and, and do that if you wanted to."
[00:20:26] Willow: Yeah. Yeah
[00:20:28] Kym_: You're like, "No."
[00:20:30] Willow: I don't know. An-
[00:20:31] Kym_: I know, I
[00:20:31] Willow: thing?
[00:20:32] Kym_: I hear, 'cause I, like I said earlier, like I'm always like trying to find the backdoor to stuff, you know? 'Cause my other like question, and you don't have to answer this, is like what are you doing, like how are you making money to live right now with, you know, these supervision things up in the air or, or getting canceled or having to find a new caseload?
[00:20:50] Like I'm just wondering how are you making that work for somebody listening that might be like, "Yeah, I can't find a supervisor either," or, "I've only got five clients and they're only paying me like, $40 an hour," or something like that. Like I just wonder like how are you doing that and traveling and taking trainings and all of that?
[00:21:06] Willow: I'll be straight up. I'm not proud of it. And I'll preface this with grateful for the ability to make money and to be able to do the things that you need to. I do DoorDash and Instacart. That's how I make my money. Like, I couldn't work as much-- I mean, it's not healthy 'cause it's like I'm working 12 to 14 hours sometimes, and then like needing to see clients on my client day like...
[00:21:30] But it allows me to travel, allows me to do things, and it allows me not to for a supervision that's not gonna get me to where I wanna be. So do whatever you have to do in order to get where you want to be and, you know, and I'm, I guess I'm just saying this for the listener who like, doesn't feel comfortable.
[00:21:47] don't be ashamed of any job that you're having to do. it's your life. You need to make money to survive. And just know that it's not permanent. It's to reach an end. It's to get to where you wanna be and where you need to be.
[00:22:01] Kym_: I love that. Yeah, instead of saying, "All right, I'm gonna move, I'm gonna live in California, I'm gonna see this supervisor in person, I'm gonna have to do this for the next, like, two years of my life," and, you know, just kinda, like, stick to these rigid rules, you're not doing that. And I, I love that.
[00:22:17] Willow: Thanks. Yeah. And I mean, and having a supervisor and client doesn't mean that you're even gonna be making money. At least in co- like, I mean, I've seen what people are trying to pay associates, and I'm like, "That's, that's not a livable wage." Like, they would still... You'll still have to be working a second job in order to be getting your hours. So I'm...
[00:22:35] Kym_: Oh, I know. Oh, it's tough. Oh my gosh. I mean, I, I had to work at, for like a... You know, I worked for a group practice in office, like when I was doing that time in my life and... But that was before, like people were, you know, working online and that sort of thing. But yeah, I just, I couldn't imagine with the freedom that's available now to have to like go back into an office for two years.
[00:22:57] it would just like kill my soul, you know? I just, I just really feel for people that are in your position, you know? That's why I'm glad we're, we're talking about it, and I like that. Like, DoorDash, awesome. Uber, whatever. You know? Something that can bring in some money. I mean, I guess that brings in enough to live it sounds like. You're able to travel and, and make it work, so that's
[00:23:17] Willow: Yeah. And it paid for my undergrad. Like, I made enough money to not, for, what is it? two out of three of the, I guess trimesters for my bachelor's completion program was I just paid... Like, I worked enough to pay my tuition. Like, that's unheard-- I mean, I have loans for other things, but, so it's like, it's worth it, you know?
[00:23:40] And I've known people who go in, like, there's cookie companies and like p- I've known people in school to go and like deliver cookie companies while they're getting their acupuncture practice. Like,
[00:23:49] Kym_: Oh, yeah
[00:23:50] Willow: y- you gotta just do what you have to do, you know?
[00:23:53] Kym_: Totally. Oh my
[00:23:54] Willow: yeah.
[00:23:55] Kym_: I, yeah, I had a lot. I, like, I, one of my jobs was um, you know, the food sampler in the grocery store where you have to take in this stuff ? Clamato. I sampled Clamato in the grocery stores. Like, I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do to make money.
[00:24:08] Yeah. You
[00:24:09] Willow: Exactly. And just find something though that's high enough paying so you can take the three weeks off and pay for your trip to, to wherever, and the training if you're gonna do it for a training. Like, you can make it work. It's, you're not bound to being in a box. I mean, you can take your box if it's the computer box. You can, you know, be in that box, but like you don't have to be in a building
[00:24:32] Kym_: Yeah. Oh my gosh, no. That, that would just, like, destroy me to have to do that. Like, I would hate to have to be sitting in an office every day.
[00:24:40] Willow: And m- maybe I'll just plug in again for your, you know, the Facebook group is, like, you even go and you, like, mention, like, what was it? 100 things for alternate ways. And I mean, I was, I looked at that and a lot of the things I've always been, like, interested in, like, working towards, but I think it's great resources.
[00:24:56] Like, you're offering a lot of really great resources to people who do wanna travel.
[00:25:01] Kym_: Yeah, 'cause what, you know, what I was saying earlier, touching on, like, you actually, you have this background of functional medicine, acupuncture, this training you've been doing for three and a half years or however long you've been doing it. Like, a lot of therapists are, like, against, like, pivoting to coaching, but it...
[00:25:16] You could to- I mean, you could already take that skill set and turn it into a coaching career and travel the world and get clients that way. Like, it's so doable. Like, you mentioned the 100... I'll put that in the link down below, too. I'm glad you brought that up. I have, like, 100 scalable, or 100 ways a therapist can scale outside of that one-to-one model that we're, like, locked into.
[00:25:35] And for people like you that aren't fully licensed yet, like, you could totally just do that as a career, you know? And make, like, five hours a month in supervision and take five years to get, you know, licensed. Like, it's so okay to
[00:25:48] Willow: Six years. We can do six years, I think
[00:25:50] Kym_: Six year- Oh yeah, six years. Okay. That's good.
[00:25:53] Willow: Yeah, so maybe I'll, I'll, I'll consider moving forward in that direction then
[00:25:58] Kym_: totally. You could totally do it. And I'll plug this too. I never talk about this on here, but the Thera AI Hub is, like, what I created to, like, take an idea or your skill set and turn it into a, to a scalable offer, whether it's, like, a, a workshop or, you know, a retreat you wanna teach somewhere or, turn it into a course, a digital product, a group with just coaching clients where you're not doing therapy, but maybe you're teaching, like, somatic, things that anybody could do just to relieve stress.
[00:26:25] Like, that is a coaching container versus a therapy container, you know? It's just a lot of people don't realize that stuff, so I'm glad we're talking about it.
[00:26:33] Willow: Giving me ideas. Thank you
[00:26:34] Kym_: Yeah, you're welcome. This is what I do in coaching. When people come to me with a problem, like, I'm like, "You know, we could just turn this into another business," you know?
[00:26:42] 'Cause there's just, there's so many possibilities out there, you know, especially with our skill sets and backgrounds. Like, we're people people already, you know? We're like, we're good with just, helping people, so it doesn't have to be in that licensed container. Okay, that's my soapbox. Yeah. Yeah, you're welcome. So you're back in the US now, but you have plans to... I guess the clients you have now with the supervisor, you're wrapping that up, and then you're just gonna have
[00:27:06] Willow: No, they, they usually follow me.
[00:27:10] Kym_: Oh,
[00:27:11] Willow: allowed to take my clients with me. And some of my clients will naturally be wrapping up anyways when they move out of state or, You know, I have, you- we're not done yet. We're continuing for, you know, a little bit and
[00:27:23] Kym_: Yeah. That's good you can take them with you for, like, continuity of care even, you know?
[00:27:29] Willow: Yeah, I really, I value continuity of care. The only time that it becomes difficult is if, you know, there's people who need insurance for some reason, and then they like... Some people, some of my old clients will reach back out and be like, "Hey, can you take insurance?" I'll be like, "No, I can't." So that's like when I...
[00:27:46] I mean, I guess it's no longer continuity of care when there's been that long of a, a break, like a six to 12-month break. But I still feel, I'm like, "Oh, I used to work like..." I don't know
[00:27:56] Kym_: Yeah, totally
[00:27:57] Willow: A caring field, I guess.
[00:27:59] Kym_: That's right. I get it.
[00:28:00] Willow: that's what we're working with.
[00:28:01] Kym_: I totally get it. Well, I love everything that you're talking about, and, like, your energy, and I just hope you can figure out a good solution so you can keep doing what you wanna do. Brazil, how exciting is that? When you get down to Brazil, I want you to schedule another podcast episode so you can
[00:28:18] Willow: Be like, "This is how I did it."
[00:28:19] Kym_: , And I'm licensed, bitches."
[00:28:21] No, I'm just kidding. That's miss.
[00:28:23] Willow: I would love that. Yeah.
[00:28:25] Kym_: it. Oh my gosh, so cool
[00:28:27] Willow: Yeah. Could I maybe just, add something that I think might... It, it, you know, it's, it's not just for, you know... Yes, it's for traveling. I guess maybe there's two things I have real quick I could mention. one thing would be, and I am not being, Endorsed or... I'm not endorsing it, but, like, the timezoneconverter.com website has been essential for keeping time zones, because you may think you know a time zone. I, when I go in April/May in Europe, I've been there during time zone changes, which can be completely... And you don't know, like, which way is it gonna...
[00:29:05] And also in October um, 'cause I go twice a year. So I really highly recommend getting, you know, you don't have to use that one, but finding a time zone converter, either app or website that you, like, religiously use for the time zone of your clients and the time zone of your, place that you're at, especially if you're moving between time zones frequently, even if it's just like an hour difference, it's, it's essential 'cause you can also put your date in.
[00:29:31] Um, So I wanna mention that for people traveling, especially as associates. Also plan your flights Like have a little buffer room between your supervision and clients and your flights, 'cause I've had flights get weird, and I actually ended up doing- trying to do supervision in an airport.
[00:29:47] Like, I got- I managed to get off the plane in time, and then I was like in the, in the cafe area of the airport with my head, like, you know, trying to make it so everything's private, and luckily it was group therapy, so... Or not group therapy uh, group supervision, so I didn't have, have to like say any personal client stuff.
[00:30:05] But it's like make sure, you know, keep ethics, keep, keep legal, and then just buffer for any chaos that may arise because it often will. Let your clients know if you need to take time off. That's what I'll do sometimes, is I'll take like a week off during the, like the really far or distance. But I've seen clients like midnight, 1:00 AM, just to be able to keep my afternoon, and I know my body. My body allows for that. But know your body if you're gonna be not present.
[00:30:34] And then just in general when I started out as a trainee, people were really giving me a hard time about doing somatics online. Just in case there's any question about, you know, you can do somatics online, you can do Hakomi online, you can do all of these things that are traditionally in office. It's-- We don't have that barrier anymore, and I, I know people feel like, "Oh, well, I can't do that." There's lots of resources out there. I even did a, my thesis on online therapy in depth in Hakomi.
[00:31:06] So it's like there's, there's resources out there. I know that just because I did that. Like, there's resources out there, so you can do your, what you're passionate about and take it with you. Okay. The
[00:31:15] Kym_: I love it. I love it. I mean, I, it, it blows my mind. I mean, the only, the only modality that I think is, I validly feel like would be difficult online is, like, play therapy with children, like trying to keep them contained. But all the rest, even EMDR, like I'm EMDR trained. I have done millions of hours of EMDR online, and it works fine.
[00:31:38] You know? It's like, when people are like, "You can't do that online," I, I hate that. It's like, yes, you can. Like, we're creative, adaptive people. We can figure it out. Yeah. Thanks for saying that. Mm-hmm. Love it. Okay, how do people find you? Especially if there's a supervisor listening that's like, "Oh my gosh, I, I supervise a million, you know, interns, and I wanna help you." do they find you?
[00:32:02] Willow: I think the easiest way would probably be just going to my my website 'cause I have contact information there. My website is willowrenaetherapy.com. And yes, by the way, that's also approved. You can have a website as an associate.
[00:32:17] Many sites have said, "Oh, that's questionable. That's not legal or ethical." Yeah, I have, I have my, my site and my, my supervisors listed on there, so completely legal and available. But,
[00:32:30] Kym_: so annoying.
[00:32:30] Willow: Compassion and love towards them. Compassion and love,
[00:32:33] Kym_: Oh yeah, that's right. Okay, right.
[00:32:36] Willow: that's what I'm telling
[00:32:37] Kym_: I'm in a mood today.
[00:32:38] Willow: So yeah willarenaetherapy.com or my email, which would be willarenaetherapy@gmail.com
[00:32:44] Kym_: Thanks. Well, I hope somebody reaches out to you. Yeah. And other students maybe, or interns that are, that need help or support or whatever. Like,
[00:32:54] Willow: Yeah, I'm, I'm completely willing to share any of the information I give. Granted, I am in the state of California so I am limited by my own knowledge base
[00:33:03] Kym_: Yeah. Makes sense. Thank you so much for taking the time today. Really
[00:33:07] Willow: Thank you for having me, Kim. This has been a
[00:33:10] Kym_: You're welcome.