Building multiple income streams as a traveling therapist isn't just a financial strategy; it's how some clinicians make the whole lifestyle actually work. In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, I sit down with Lisa Bodenstein, a therapist, coach, and clinical supervisor who has been doing this since 2012, long before online therapy was even a thing. Based in Italy, originally from South Africa, trained in the UK, she has figured out how to keep practicing across borders while building a life that genuinely fits her.
Lisa shares how she navigated international licensing across three countries, why having multiple income streams took the financial pressure off her client work, and what it looks like to build offerings that come from real lived experience. From a supervision community to an ADHD book in progress to a creative retreat space in rural Italy, she's a great example of what's possible when you stop waiting for permission to do things differently.
In This Episode, We Explore…
Connect with Lisa Bodenstein:
https://www.lisabodenstein.online/
https://www.skool.com/brew-and-do-supervision-crew-9236/about
https://forbodymindandsoul.com/
https://wombtwinsurvivor.com/
https://www.instagram.com/forbodymindandsoul/
BnB: https://www.booking.com/hotel/it/sonic-alchemy.it.html?utm_source=copilot.com
Recording studio: https://sonicalchemy.it https://www.lisabodenstein.online/
Connect with me:
Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab
Subscribe to the Podcast:
Apple iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcast | Stitcher | Amazon | Castbox
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Sponsored by Alma: Managing a private practice can be challenging. There are obstacles at every turn — from navigating the credentialing process, to managing finances, to finding new clients. That’s where Alma can help. Alma is on a mission to simplify access to mental health care by focusing first and foremost on supporting clinicians. https://helloalma.com/kym
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Transcript:
[00:00:00] Kym: everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist Podcast. We have such an interesting guest today. I'm so excited to get into this. We have Lisa...
[00:00:08] is it Bodensteen or Bodenstein? How do you pronounce it, Lisa?
[00:00:11] Lisa: I usually say Bodenstein,
[00:00:14] Kym: Okay. I was like, "I don't know which way she says it."
[00:00:16] Anyway, Lisa, welcome to the podcast. So excited to have you here. I always start out with that question, like, how'd you go from being a typical therapist to a traveling therapist?
[00:00:26] Lisa: Okay, and I'm super excited about this question because it's, it's twofold. One is I was on a work away stint, so I like to do therapy alongside other things. So I was doing a work away stint and helping out in the veggie garden, listening to various different podcasts on YouTube, and yours rocked up and I'm like, "There's a thing called Traveling Therapists?
[00:00:51] Kym: Yeah?
[00:00:52] Lisa: And then I was like, the more I listen to what you're doing, I'm like, that's actually kind of what I do, but I hadn't realized that it has a name or anything. So I was like, oh my gosh. So then I binge watched or binge listened to a lot of your podcasts and stuff, and I was really excited. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm not the only therapist out there who's curious about the world and tries to make it happen with, you know, keeping their practice going.
[00:01:16] so how it started, well, yeah, so I- thank you for having this podcast 'cause I'm like, oh, this has been really inspiring. the other part of the question is so I did my undergrad in South Africa. They weren't offering the post-grad for dance movement psychotherapy in South Africa, so I had to do it in another country.
[00:01:35] So I went to the UK to complete it and knew that I wanted to come back to South Africa. obviously there were a few hoops to jump, and I think as any traveling therapist knows, there's different things you need to consider, like, insurance and just like, will I be licensed in another country as well.
[00:01:53] So while I was getting all of that together, I needed to do more hours. So I had finished my training in the UK, went back to South Africa and found out it was gonna take me at least a year for this process to happen.
[00:02:04] So I decided I'm gonna take this year to collect some more practice hours, go back to the UK, collect more practice hours and travel.
[00:02:12] Kym: Cool. I love
[00:02:14] Lisa: yeah, I went back to the UK and then I decided I'm gonna travel to Central America, South America, and at that time, it was like 2012, we just didn't have like as much access to the internet, so I didn't even take my laptop with me. I had one of those phones that all you could do was like send a message or make a call just to let like peeps know that you're safe.
[00:02:35] Yeah, so then what I'd do is I would travel and then come back, collect more hours, travel, come back, and collect more hours with an organization that I was working with, prior to going back to south africa..
[00:02:47] So they always needed people to come and help out with therapy sessions. So that was amazing how that worked out because it got me to realize that this is a way of operating as a therapist too.
[00:03:00] Like, all the preconceived i- ideas that I had were kind of, like, chucked out the window. And I guess my encouragement to other people is that you don't need to fit into the box or, you know, you can figure out a way to do it in a way that works for you and that will also help you to reach the clients that you love working with.
[00:03:20] So
[00:03:21] Kym: Wow. So you're, you're actually like an original traveling therapist then, back to 2012. I'm still in a little office, like, going on vacation every two weeks or whatever. Yeah, I love it.
[00:03:33] Lisa: Yeah, and it's been amazing how that's evolved, and it's so much easier now to travel and keep your clients with you as you go.
[00:03:42] Kym: So you're originally from South Africa, and then you were like, "I wanna do this dance movement degree." And then so went to the UK, and then it was like, oh gosh, I can't use... Was it like you couldn't use the degree back in South Africa, so you had to do like additional hours? Is that
[00:03:57] Lisa: Yeah, so with the psychotherapy training in the UK... Oh, it's just complicated when it comes to the different, like, policies. So I was accepted by the health department in South Africa, but I just needed to have more hours, practice hours under my belt.
[00:04:13] Kym: I see.
[00:04:13] Lisa: And as these things also take time, sometimes paperwork-wise, to make the application, if I put the application in, then it takes a while for each step to take shape.
[00:04:25] Kym: Gotcha. I mean, I think that's such a common issue, like so many, especially like US therapists that are like, "Well, I wanna move to Spain, but I wanna see people in Spain. Like, I still wanna be able to be in the office with them." It's such a roadblock, like trying to like transfer your license and like even get the same language across different countries.
[00:04:44] It's like, wow. It's really hard to do, and that's why at least a lot of US therapists, they end up just seeing their clients back in the US and like working with the time zones and stuff 'cause it's so complicated. So it's, it's cool to hear you like, that you went through it even before technology existed and figured out how to make that whole thing work.
[00:05:02] That's amazing. Yeah.
[00:05:04] Lisa: interesting 'cause back then also insurance wasn't even like, "Hmm, you do online therapy? Uh, What?" So then, um, I knew that I could practice with my UK, license and insurance in South Africa for three months at a time. But I couldn't really practice in South Africa unless I was doing volunteer work.
[00:05:23] So what I ended up also doing to fund that was lecturing at a university. So my introduction basically to therapy was, I need to find a job to support me to do the work that I love doing. So that's how it started. Purely because I wanted to wait. I'm like, "No, I'm not going to get... let this stop me.
[00:05:47] There's ways, and I'm not in a rush, so why don't I travel in between while these things are kind of working out?" And now you can do it the other way around. And it kind of made it feel less threatening coming to Italy and saying, "Okay, I wanna stay here for a little bit longer. So how can I become licensed here?"
[00:06:07] And that was so much easier than trying to get licensed in South Africa. Yeah, I was surprised. For me, under the umbrella of dance movement psychotherapy, Yeah, because they accepted the training from the UK as well, and the problem with the hours and everything was... I guess also maybe because I was a more established therapist at that point.
[00:06:27] But yes. So now that gives me the freedom to practice in Italy with clients here as well, and then also still work with online clients who are in the UK.
[00:06:37] Kym: I see. Okay. And can you see clients in South Africa too, or you just mainly stay with the UK and
[00:06:43] Lisa: I have decided to keep it easy for myself
[00:06:45] Kym: that makes
[00:06:46] Lisa: and just, just focus on UK clients. Yeah. But there's var- there are various countries where those things... You know, each country is different, so it's about taking the time to find out what the rules are and also to speak with the client. Like, "You need to be aware that I'm working from this country.
[00:07:05] Is that gonna be okay for you?" And you've got such wonderful resources around that as well, like checking in with like, I think I read it on a blog a while back about, you know, just having the emergency number in case something's going on for your client, that you know where to reach out. All such incredibly valuable information to have, so yeah.
[00:07:24] Kym: Absolutely. I think that's the most terrifying thing as a, like, a remote therapist in general, is just, like, not knowing where your client is, if they're like, "By the way, I'm-- don't wanna live anymore," or whatever. Like, or there's, you know, a crisis and you can't help them. I think that's one of the scariest parts but yeah.
[00:07:40] Lisa: Yeah, Exactly. 'Cause you wanna... I wanna take care of my clients while I'm also living the life that I want to live, so I don't wanna be, like, frivolous about it.
[00:07:50] But I also don't wanna let the policies stop me from making it happen. Not policies, they've been put in place ultimately for protection, so, it's just about working with that.
[00:08:01] And there's such a... I was, I think it was a year ago, I was feeling so frustrated about like, "I don't fit into any boxes right now," 'cause I was still waiting to be licensed here. So then my partner of... He... 'Cause I'm like a, I need to understand things with movement. He said, "Okay, I'm gonna do an illustration.
[00:08:17] You just stand where you are, and imagine that you're in this box, and I'm lifting you up and putting you outside the box. You're not one of those people that fits inside the box, but you can exist outside of the box. Like, maybe you just need to forge the path forward." And like until he'd actually given me the physical illustration of that, like I couldn't wrap my head around, like not b- fitting into the box at that time.
[00:08:42] So it was such a beautiful illustration, I think, of how we sometimes box ourselves in as well because of fear of like, " Am I gonna get it right? Am I gonna do something wrong? Am I gonna get into trouble?" I don't know, all these fears that we have. Yeah.
[00:08:58] Kym: mean, it stops so many people. I even have, like, like, a free training on my website. It's like, "Here's all the nos you're probably gonna get, and here's how to, like, get around them," you know? 'Cause it's like, it's so... It's just people- Not everybody's like you and I, I guess, in a lot of ways.
[00:09:12] They're not just like, "Oh, I'm just gonna figure it out. I'm just gonna make it work 'cause this is what I wanna do." I think a lot of people just get stopped, you know? They just say, "Well, I guess I can't do it then," and then they just, like, accept their fate or whatever, So I love that. You're, like, a great example.
[00:09:24] Lisa: Yeah, and I think that's also what inspired me about you as well, and you know, there's o- there are other people out there doing it and making it happen. So, you know, it's just about patiently getting through the, the things that are we feeling are roadblocks or are actual roadblocks. And I think there's something I came across the other day was like we have these dreams.
[00:09:44] So let's say there's a therapist out there that's dreaming of doing traveling therapy. Like, the dream is an invitation. Like, we can accept the invitation, but we don't have to. It's like there is this option. You can take this option. Go for it. So I just thought that like totally reframed, 'cause I have so many dreams, things that I wanna do.
[00:10:04] Like, and I wanna do them all. I don't have to. There's just invitation. Do you wanna try it this way? See if it works. So
[00:10:11] Kym: Yeah. And I think once you've done what you've done, like, just, like, worked your way around it to make it, like, work for the life you wanna live, any roadblock that comes up, you'd use that same skill set really to figure out like, "Okay, how am I gonna get around it this time?" Or, or, a, a partner that picks you up and puts you outside of the box physically to get you s- outside of yourself or unstuck or whatever. Like, that's so cool. I love that story.
[00:10:32] Lisa: Yeah, it's really good. And I think also part of that is, you know, South Africa, you have so many roadblocks when it comes to any kind of thing. It's like, okay, well, there's a workaround. There is always a creative workaround. And the beautiful community also, I think, in South Africa, people are very community, like, driven or focused.
[00:10:51] So if I have a problem, I can bring it to someone else and they're like, "Okay, let's, let's work this out." Like the phone call I was having with the lady when I was trying to sort of, bring my registration across. She's like, "Oh, okay, well, we can't do it this way, but maybe, you know, maybe we could look at it another way." So that is really helpful to have. Yeah.
[00:11:09] Kym: Absolutely. So, so to be in Italy right now, you're not seeing clients that are physically in Italy, but you had to get licensed in Italy to be able to see clients back in the UK. Is that how it works? I'm
[00:11:21] Lisa: No, I think, yeah. So I think for me, the way I understand it, and I always encourage people to do their own research because they might be with their own, what do you call it? Association. So with the ADMP, I can work in Italy, insured for three months at a time, with clients from the UK online. And then in Italy, I can also, I'm licensed and insured to see clients here as
[00:11:49] Kym: okay. Okay. Gotcha. But you're just not right now, you're just mainly seeing people back in the UK, or do you see both?
[00:11:54] Lisa: Yeah. So at the moment I'm not. Very good question. Because I want to make sure that I understand, like, client contracting and the laws in Italy first. I'm very much like, I need to understand it first so that I feel confident. If I don't feel confident, then I'm like sitting in the therapy session thinking in the back of my head like, "Okay." So yeah, I tend to like...
[00:12:15] Kym: be doing this? Am I gonna get in trouble?"
[00:12:18] Lisa: Exactly. Exactly. I tend to overkill a little bit, but then at least I know, okay. yeah, and I think also, you know, when you... I've never really, like, moved to another country... Well, okay, I have moved to other countries and stayed there for longer, but not thinking, "Okay, if this is a long-term thing," you know, also kind of being in this beautiful house that we're in, that we're currently renovating, it's just like, "Okay, how much can I also take on if I'm thinking about my own self-care?"
[00:12:49] So yes, I can continue working with my- current clients, but I'm not in a space yet with my own sort of resilience to take on more clients. So it's having that q- honest question with myself, "Okay, I'm okay with this amount of clients, and I feel like I'm in a good space for this." When I build more resilience, maybe when I feel more comfortable with the local language, maybe when I've got a bit more confidence around how to navigate life here, then I'll also feel more open to welcoming new clients.
[00:13:17] And I think that's something that's so important for me. Maybe not for other people, but I need to check in with how much can I take on emotionally. Like, it's been quite an emotional ride, like, you know, for various factors. So that's also something to just bear in mind, and I think that's why for me, having a second income stream is what takes the financial pressure off me when it comes to working with therapy clients. And that's just how I do it.
[00:13:45] Kym: I wanna talk about that too, but I also wanna just touch on, you said renovating. So did you guys go to Italy to renovate this place? Like, is that what you're doing? Or you just, like, happened to love this place and you decided to renovate it? I'm just, like, so curious.
[00:13:57] Lisa: Okay, it's a long story. I won't go into too much of it, but um, so my partner bought this place because he wanted to well, he could tell his own story, but he has this place here to create his music studio, Sonic Alchemy. And he went all around Italy looking for the perfect place, and this was the...
[00:14:16] You know how you arrive somewhere, and it, feels right, like, yes, this is the space that he wanted to use for a studio. So that's how it ended up here, and then also now renovating parts of it so that people can come here if they want to do songwriting or poetry writing retreat or author's retreat.
[00:14:36] So we have a B&B and then a, a kind of library room where people can just sit at a desk, get their stuff done, and then if, when they're ready, they can come down here and get their recording stuff done. So it's a beautiful creative space that we can use for this, and then also for other retreats. So sometimes we do, we plan on doing retreats here too.
[00:14:55] Kym: Oh my God. You have to give me the link to that too, 'cause I don't think I have that link. I've got some other links that we're gonna talk about, but I want that one too. That's
[00:15:02] Lisa: Yeah, definitely.
[00:15:03] Kym: That's awesome. Oh my gosh, how cool is that?
[00:15:06] Lisa: I know, life is amazing how it unfolds.
[00:15:09] Kym: It's amazing. You can just... I mean, you really just can do anything you wanna do.
[00:15:13] So I, I wanna talk about some of the other stuff that you're doing. You have, like, a super cool niche that I've never even really heard about. Can we just, like, talk about that for a second, like part of your clinical work?
[00:15:24] Lisa: We can. I wanted to say one thing before we go there. I think- As traveling therapists, sometimes we are in a partnership with someone, sometimes we're not, and I think that makes such a big difference to our capacity or ability to do our work. It's like who you're with and are they supportive of your work? So that's also a big piece.
[00:15:44] yeah, I just wanted to mention that because that when I first started, I was just on my own doing my own thing, and then when you're like trying to n- navigate two different people with different sort of travel dreams, it's like, it can be interesting to kind of figure out how to move forward.
[00:16:00] Kym: literally, I'll share this. We're going through that right now, me and my partner, because, one, we just had a grandchild. It's my step-grandchild, but it's his grandson that he's obsessed with, right? So we're like, we're here where the baby is, and we're like, "I don't know we'll ever leave."
[00:16:15] I'm obsessed with the baby, too. So we're like, "Will we ever actually leave? I don't know." You know, and also he's, like, in IT, so he has to usually work in the United States. Like, he's, he can work remote, but it has to be, like, when the, in the United States, so it's a little bit more restrictive. So, you know, it's, it's so interesting that you even bring that up, 'cause it, that is a huge thing.
[00:16:33] Like, having a partner, you have to... There's a lot of different things that come up around that. So, yeah, thanks for saying that.
[00:16:39] Lisa: Yes, exactly. 'Cause you get to those points, okay, like, "I need to travel for maybe just two weeks and then
[00:16:45] Kym: Yeah. I'll be like, "I'll..." I, which I am. Tomorrow I'm going to the Dominican Republic b- by myself with my mo- my mom's gonna be down there, so I'm going down, and he's just gonna stay up here. So, you know, we're making it work. But, yeah.
[00:16:57] Lisa: Exactly. Exactly, and that's again, like, you know, if we can make it work for ourselves, but also like in partnerships or with families, I don't know what other people's setups are, but like it's so worth having that conversation with the people you love in your life to try and honor both your dreams and also their dreams.
[00:17:13] Sometimes I don't always get it right, but, you
[00:17:16] Kym: I agree.
[00:17:18] Lisa: Yeah.
[00:17:18] Kym: It's tough sometimes. It really
[00:17:20] Lisa: Yeah.
[00:17:21] Kym: need to do a whole episode on that, I think. But yeah, no, you're, you're right. Thanks for saying that. It's, like, really timely for me, too.
[00:17:28] Okay. So I wanna talk about your niche because it's so cool. I mean, we could probably spend an hour just talking about it, but I just, I'm just, like, curious, like, how you got into it and, like, a couple of the main, points about it. 'Cause a lot of people don't know about this particular thing. Yeah,
[00:17:43] Lisa: So it came across, like I was... Part of Dance Movement Psychotherapy, is that in our sessions we- Kind of spending time looking at the body-mind connection and also movement. So maybe we can't access something that we're struggling with with words, but there are creative ways to work around that or to tend to that, either with the body or with creative exploration.
[00:18:08] So one of the CPD trainings I was doing, so just to kind of like develop my s- my craft was to do this training on development from conception through to five years old, and we look at the movement patterns that evolve over time. And I would like to do a shout-out to the people who do the training.
[00:18:29] I've forgotten what it's called though. But it's with an awesome couple called Tim and Claire. I know their names. I can't remember the name of the... A dance of awareness training. so we were spending some time in the, in the womb, like I said, on the conception, and then you're moving around in the womb, and then suddenly I had this image of a twin brother in the womb with me,
[00:18:52] Kym: Whoa!
[00:18:52] Lisa: I was like, "Ah," suddenly everything made so much sense.
[00:18:57] And then we passed through the next state. I can't remember what state it was 'cause I was so, like, excited, like, "Oh my gosh," This is what I've been searching for my whole life. Now I know why I've never felt, like, full." And I was like, "W- wow, so much made sense to me." Like... And then we went into the next phase, and then I just was overwhelmed with this sense of grief and, like, couldn't understand what was going on, and I then noticed that I, I was alone in the womb space, and it was really, like, quite intense experience.
[00:19:27] and this can sometimes happen when we're exploring these developmental movement phases, is that when we go back to those moments, there's different, like, tags or, I don't know, parts of our blueprint that, like, something's happened here for us, so let's spend time to tend to that moment of our development.
[00:19:45] They held the space so beautifully, and they didn't rush me to go through the next phases, so I just stayed with that. And they can, someone can come and sit alongside you if you're going through something that needs some support. So after the training or after the, sort of developmental process of the movement had come to completion, you get a chance to share.
[00:20:06] And I was like, "Okay," when it came to my turn I was, like, so excited and so sad all at the same time. I didn't know what was going on. And I shared my experience, and there was a person opposite the circle, we're sitting in a circle, who said, "Oh, maybe you're a womb twin survivor."
[00:20:22] And I was like, "Well, well, what is that and how do you know about that?"
[00:20:26] And, and he amazingly, he was a he, he said, "Well, I am a wombtwin survivor." And it was after we all shared, so I was just... He's like, "Well, we can talk more about it afterwards." So after we all shared, they have some time where people can just stay in this space and talk with each other more. You know, just so it felt like really warm way to exit this training.
[00:20:50] And I had the opportunity to hug this person who also had a, an understanding of this mystery that I was just going through, and the fact that it was also you know, that I had a sense that it was a twin brother and he was a, a male, and he had a sense that it was a twin sister, that was such a healing moment to be able to hug somebody who at my moment of discovery knew what it was that I was talking about.
[00:21:12] Kym: That's incredible.
[00:21:15] Lisa: And you know, you have these doubts like, "Oh, this can't be real. I don't have any evidence." Mm. And I think a lot of twin survivors go through that if they've lost their twin really early on. Maybe there's no proof of it in scans yet. Maybe parents or family also don't know.
[00:21:31] so if anybody's listening and they're also thinking, "Oh, wow, this could be me," just, just take a breath.
[00:21:37] You're not on your own, and you're not crazy. Like, this is a thing. And yeah, feel free to reach out if, anybody wants to speak more about that, 'cause it can be quite a, like, big thing to, to uncover or discover. And then you go to the internet and you search like, "What is going on?" Like, "What is a wombtwin survivor?"
[00:21:57] And at that time, there was so little information on the internet, or, like, hardly any books. There was one book... Well, there's more than one book, but at the time I only uncovered one. So yes having the chance to first... I was like, "Okay, I first need to understand what's going on for me and give some time to tend to my own healing journey," which is still ongoing.
[00:22:17] But there needs to be somebody who says, "This is a thing, and there is a therapist out there. If you want support, there is somewhere to go." And I think because it is, I mean, we s- I say the word niche, niche,
[00:22:30] Kym: and niche. I know, I never know what it is. I say niche, but
[00:22:33] Lisa: Okay, niche. Because it is so small, like, I didn't even have to do too much, marketing to let people know that I'm out there.
[00:22:42] It was mostly you know... I'd written one article. I did one YouTube video about it, and there was one other thing that I did. One article, one YouTube video- Oh, and my website. And because it's so niche, I think it, that's what brings people in because they're searching differently for this particular struggle.
[00:23:04] It's like maybe people used to go to online directories more, and now, like online therapy directories, now they're just typing into Google, "This is happening to me. I need help." And so the search engine is gonna help them find someone differently.
[00:23:18] So I think, that can really help with just signposting to people like, "Hey, there's this thing, and I'm out here, and if you need help, it's here."
[00:23:27] So I haven't kept on top of that really, but... And I'll come to this later. It's like, with the ADHD coaching that I do, it's like one year, one goal. And this year my one goal goal is to kind of sort out my marketing piece to try and freshen it up a bit, 'cause a lot of my stuff is a bit outdated. So yes that is a little bit about that. So attending to the client story, but also thinking about practitioners who also
[00:23:55] Kym: Yeah. It's, it's interesting. I mean, even for a therapist that might be listening and they're like, "Whoa, I wonder if that's what's going on with that one client that has that, you know, piece," you know, maybe to explore that further. Just think it's really interesting. Yeah. So
[00:24:08] Lisa: It is. And I think the book that I read is by a lady called Althea Hayton. She's, she's no longer with us, but I think the book offers some... And she has some online resources that offer some really helpful things for therapists to follow. But what I would also encourage is don't feel like that is the prescribed, step-by-step list that you need to follow.
[00:24:32] 'Cause one of the things that she speaks about is having to s- you know, you need to arrive at the point where you say goodbye to your twin and let go of them so that you can live your life for yourself. And I think that for a lot of people is too much. It's like, "I've just found out about my
[00:24:47] Kym: Yeah. Like, I don't wanna say goodbye yet.
[00:24:50] Lisa: for me."
[00:24:50] Yeah. So I think if there's a therapist out there working with someone like this, just giving you permission or your client permission to figure out what feels right for them or for you on that journey. Like, some people are so ready to do that, and it really is so healing for them, and for others, that just is too much.
[00:25:09] Kym: Yeah. Yeah. That's it's such a good rule of thumb just with grief in general. You know, it's like not everybody's got the same path with that, you know?
[00:25:16] Lisa: Exactly.
[00:25:18] Kym: I love that. Okay. So, and I wanna segue 'cause there's so much I wanna talk about. I, I think that's such an interesting topic, but you're also writing a book, and I wanna talk about that.
[00:25:28] Lisa: Okay. So on my journey of working with womb twin survivors- There seemed to be some kind of pattern or correlation with ADHD.
[00:25:39] I was then thinking, "Okay, I also have been diagnosed with ADHD in my 20s." Which was, I think, quite helpful to know. It helped me to understand a lot of things early on.
[00:25:53] And then later finding out about the womb twin survivor piece also helped me to understand myself better. So I then thought, okay, there's so many... Well, not so many, but there are a number of clients who then also share that they're struggling with ADHD. So I was like, "Okay, when I have time, I'm gonna look into that."
[00:26:11] So I think, was it last year or the year before, I did a, a coaching training specifically for ADHD, and that totally blew my mind because it reminded me how much my ADHD symptoms... Symptoms? Characteristics. I don't know, sometimes it's tender stepping around words that we
[00:26:31] Kym: Yeah, it's okay.
[00:26:34] Lisa: yeah. How much of those, the volume of those, had dialed up since I, I had a, a quite a serious concussion injury.
[00:26:41] So I was managing my ADHD pretty good until the concussion injury, and I hadn't realized how bad or... Not bad. How much extra emotional and time constraints or like... No, wait. How much extra emotional energy this was taking, and also how much extra time it was taking for me to just get stuff done. So when I did the coaching training, I learned all these things.
[00:27:08] Okay, yeah, this is what I used to do. Like, why don't I remember that? So that's where I started jotting all these things down for myself. And then this year, with the one year one goal thing, I'm like, "Oh, okay, rich. I'm just gonna write this little book for myself." And then a colleague mentioned to me, "Why don't you share this book wider into the world out there?"
[00:27:29] So now I'm working on this trying to get it together so that it's readable also for general public. I think and what... I've called it something. I'm gonna forget, so I'm gonna write it down here. So this is where we're at at the moment. It's called You, Me, and This Thing Called ADHD.
[00:27:44] It's about finding your rhythm as an ADHD adult. So I'm gonna read this here. It's a guide for ADHD adults to support their executive functioning and emotional regulation. And I share anecdotes and practical tools and some, like, information, like neuroscience stuff, and then creative prompts and also some physical exercises that I just do for myself.
[00:28:08] So I'm like, "Oh, okay, I'm just gonna put each of these into each different chapter." So some of the chapters I'm talking about, like- Timekeeping or like starting something at the moment. The chapter I'm working on is finishing and ironically, like we start a task can be difficult. Some- for some of us that's really easy, but completing the task can be the challenge.
[00:28:29] So I'm like writing this chapter on completing the task, and I haven't been able to look at my book for four weeks because
[00:28:35] Kym: yeah, ironically.
[00:28:37] Lisa: Yeah. So I think there's a bit of a parallel process happening there, but that's gonna help feed into the book as well, I think. So as I'm writing it, there's more research that's happening at the same time, and I'm like reliving each struggle that I have, like full volume.
[00:28:53] So yes, this is a book that if anybody wants to be on the waiting list for when it comes out, let me know. I might create a, an, a newsletter for that so people can be involved, and I'll share that on the, the link.
[00:29:07] Kym: That'd be really cool.
[00:29:09] Lisa: So I've got like a little... 'Cause as you can tell, I'm up to a lot of different things.
[00:29:12] Kym: Yeah, I love
[00:29:13] Lisa: got like, like a, kind of like a online business card. It's called lisabodenstein.online, and on there I've got the three main things that I'm doing. So there's the womb twins and our work, there's the ADHD stuff where the book will be as well, and then there's also the school stuff with the supervision stuff that we can come to next.
[00:29:36] Kym: Yeah. You wanna talk about that too? 'Cause I, I love... I mean, a lot of what we do on this podcast is, like, multiple income stream or even multiple passion type stuff, because like you said, I mean, moving around a lot, trying to figure out regulations and rules, like, we can't always depend on just, like, our client one-to-one income stream to, like, support us all the time.
[00:29:56] And then we're, like, so multi-passion. I mean, at least I am. Like, I could start a new thing every week 'cause I have so many ideas, you know? And it sounds like you do too. It's like, this book and this and that.
[00:30:05] And it's just, I think it's fun to let people know everything that, that other therapists are up to, just to even say, "Look," I mean, like, you don't have to just see clients one-to-one if you don't want to or if you've got other, like, ways you wanna put yourself out into the world.
[00:30:19] Lisa: Exactly. Exactly. And I think there was something I was gonna say about the ADHD piece that I've now forgotten. Yes, there's something about, like for me, I feel so much more enlivened if I'm moving from place to place. It helps me to stay motivated and on track. Whereas for other people, that just adds to the stress of the rhythm of their day.
[00:30:40] But somehow for me, it helps me to stay motivated. So that's been an interesting thing. And I think also not everybody is the type of person that can do three different things, or
[00:30:51] Kym: True.
[00:30:52] Lisa: I think it can be confusing for clients as well, and that's why I try to keep them separate so just the womb twin sur- I've got the own website for the womb twin survivor stuff, and then a website for, it's called For Body, Mind, Soul, which is kind of the umbrella, because it's all about the body, the mind, and the soul for me, how I kind of arrived into this field, and also how I, my approach in working with people or supporting people.
[00:31:18] And then there's the, the platform of school where we go into the stuff that I was telling you about earlier. But maybe I'm gonna ask you to ask me a question so I can
[00:31:28] Kym: Okay, yeah, get you back on track. Yeah. I totally get it. I'm like that too. I'll just start going down this rabbit hole, and I'm like, "Wait, what was I even talking about?" I don't even know what I was talking about. Well, the school thing. So on top of the book and all this other stuff that you're doing and, and your niche and all that, you are also, like, you have, if people that don't know school, it's like a plat- like a learning platform. It's like a community learning platform where you can put courses and that sort of thing. And you have a school community, and it's around... Do you wanna tell them what it's around?
[00:31:57] Lisa: Okay, cool. So the school community is called, at the moment, I'm still settling on a name, but at the moment it's called the Brew and Do Supervision Crew. So you come with your cup of tea. I don't have my mug of tea, but you can come with your glass of water, your mug of tea, your cup of coffee, whatever it is, and we sit down and we just get stuff done, whether it's talking about our different income streams, whether it's talking about the struggles that we have in being a practitioner.
[00:32:23] So I think there's a lot of, like, we can carry around a lot of shame with us. I don't know why. Like, and we don't wanna tell other therapists what we're struggling with, or we don't wanna tell other people. Like, we... Maybe they want us to have our stuff together, so we kind of feel like we wanna have our stuff together.
[00:32:43] But I'm totally like, wanna break that wall down. Like, I don't have my stuff together, but I'm here and it... I'm just, you know, going forward w- with each step. And so it's about normalizing that, and it's also about, okay, maybe I don't have my stuff together. What are the things that I do want to get together?
[00:33:00] And let's support each other to say, "Hey, you can actually do that. I support you." We support each other. So that's what the group is about, and we meet... At the moment there are... So my trick is, and this is supporting me with my ADHD to get my, to get my admin done as well. Like I, we meet three times a week, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
[00:33:19] It's just for an hour. People don't have to come every day. Some people come once a month. Totally fine. Tuesdays is free. If you want more support, there are different packages that you can choose on school.
[00:33:32] Kym: Oh, cool.
[00:33:34] Lisa: yeah, it's been so good for me to also be accountable To myself and to my practice side of things, is it's so easy to just like put that on the back burner and then all of a sudden you haven't done your client notes or, you know, I haven't responded to emails.
[00:33:49] So it's an hour that we can either choose, okay, we wanna talk about this piece. Next week we're gonna actually get our, what it is that we spoke about last week done. So we don't just talk about it, but we get it done as well. Yeah. So that's, that's what that's about. And I think I created that 'cause that's something that I needed.
[00:34:08] So I'm like, "Okay,
[00:34:10] Kym: know, I,
[00:34:10] Lisa: do I find this?"
[00:34:11] Kym: talk about this all the time in here. It's like I swear, like, every person I talk to that has, like, something they're putting out into the world, it's because they've been through that same struggle. It's like, "Oh, I have ADD, I'm gonna write a book about how I cope with ADD." You know?
[00:34:23] It's like, "Oh, I, I, I need, like, a group to help me focus and get stuff done. Let's make a group for it." Like, I love that, you know? So good. My twin thing, the womb twin thing is like, that happened to me, now I wanna teach other people how to. You know? It's just, I think that's the natural evolution.
[00:34:38] I also think it's, like, the key to being s- successful with this stuff really, is because, you know, I mean, you could be like, "Gosh, you know, I think there's this niche out there that needs to be served," but if you're not passionate about it or if you haven't been through it or it's not, like, authentic, like, I don't think it's gonna work. You know what I mean?
[00:34:54] Lisa: Yeah,
[00:34:55] Kym: we're trying to, like, maybe monetize or, or another income stream or that sort of thing. You know, I feel like it's gotta come from that place for it to be real. Yeah.
[00:35:02] Lisa: Exactly. I feel the same way. I mean, maybe other people make it work, but I think for me, I need to be connected to what I'm doing for it to make sense to me, and so that's what I, I need to do. And s- other people can do it the other way around and I'm like, "How do you do it? Like, how do you just do it that way?
[00:35:20] I can't."
[00:35:21] Kym: interest in this whatsoever, but you're selling a course about it? I don't get it.
[00:35:25] Lisa: Exactly. Oh gosh. And then also that, that is, um... I was talking about winter and survivors and how there's, you know, at the time when I uncovered it, there was like- Not a lot of resources out there. So I thought, "I'm gonna create an online course so people can do..." Let's say they can't afford to come to therapy or maybe they're private, they don't actually, not ready to talk to anybody about it.
[00:35:47] They still wanna figure it out on their own. So I created this online course, and then some... This has just been some things that colleagues or other people have come to me, "Hey, you created that course. Like, how did you do that?" Or, you know, it just feel like, where do I even start? And then a- through those conversations, realizing, oh, this is something that I can also offer to people.
[00:36:08] So that's something that I'm gonna put on school as well. If there's a therapist out there that's been dying to create a course about their passion or their specialization, like, here's a template to, to like break it down step by step so it doesn't feel so overwhelming, you know? 'Cause I think it can be hard if we just like, wanna get the whole bigger picture together.
[00:36:27] Okay, here's just like, take it one step at a time, and it's gonna be fine, and you'll get there. So yeah. And that's also a course that I'm gonna be following when I create my next course, 'cause it's like, "Oh, this is what I did last time." You know? And you don't have to follow the steps. You do it your own way.
[00:36:43] Yeah.
[00:36:43] Kym: But it's nice to, it's nice to have a framework of somebody that's already done it before, you
[00:36:48] Lisa: yeah.
[00:36:48] Kym: for yourself, it's like SOPs in your business, like standard operating procedures. It's like, once I realized I actually needed to document like how I was doing everything, it's like, oh, that makes more sense.
[00:36:59] Now I can actually go back and like repeat it instead of like trying to reinvent the wheel every time, you
[00:37:04] Lisa: Exactly. Oh my gosh. Exactly, Kim.
[00:37:09] Kym: We're all learning, right? We're all learning along the way. It's like, how did I do that? I have no idea. Let me do it again. Yeah. No, I totally get it. Yeah, totally get it. I love that.
[00:37:19] Lisa: Yeah. And there's this thing like we, I mean, I could... Ugh, this buzzword imposter syndrome, but I was listening again to a podcast by, I think it was Steve Bartlett. I don't know if you've come across him. He's like this entrepreneur that's like the Shark Tank in the UK, and he was talking about imposter syndrome and saying, forgive me if I get the words wrong, but he was saying about how it's actually like growth...
[00:37:44] I don't think he used the word growth syndrome. I'm not sure, but what I got from it was like, it's a growing edge. So e- every time we feel imposter syndrome, it's actually quite good 'cause we're checking in with ourselves. We don't just arrogantly think we're the expert, but this is something that we need to grow at.
[00:37:58] Like today, I was like super nervous to come to the podcast. So like,
[00:38:02] Kym: Yeah.
[00:38:03] Lisa: my growing edge, you know? Like, oh, okay.
[00:38:06] Kym: It's awesome.
[00:38:08] Lisa: grow. So sometimes imposter syndrome can be actually a healthy thing. Maybe it's a reframe, you know? Like, okay, I'm feeling like this because it's something, some way I need to grow.
[00:38:19] Then when I try it out, I'll build my confidence and then, yeah, I won't feel like as much of an imposter. But I think- Yeah. I think there is so much out there as well. There's so much out there that it can be hard to sometimes narrow it down for ourselves as therapists too. Like, which direction do I wanna take?
[00:38:39] You know, and sometimes it's just about going with one thing and seeing where that gets you. You know, it's okay to make mistakes as well.
[00:38:47] Kym: And I also feel like people that don't have imposter syndrome are like sociopaths, you know what I mean? It's like, I don't think it's normal to not feel like an imposter really, in a lot of ways, you know? And if you don't, I think there's something wrong with you, you know, a little bit, you know?
[00:39:03] I mean, I know there's some people that are like, "I've totally got this," but I don't know. I think it's just real normal, really.
[00:39:08] Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's healthy for us to have that conversation also and put that out there so other people hear that and, "Okay, I've heard that before. Okay, I'm hearing it again. Okay, good."
[00:39:19] Kym: That's awesome. You're doing so much cool stuff. I wanna see your Airbnb too, or your BnB that you guys are
[00:39:24] Lisa: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Totally.
[00:39:27] Kym: Italy for a while, or do you have plans to, like, travel other places, or?
[00:39:32] Lisa: Yeah. So what we do is... Well, what we do, I'm saying it like we have a routine down, but we don't, don't yet. But something that I've done in the past as well is, So I love pets, but with this traveling lifestyle, it's just not feasible to have pets. So I've been getting, I've been doing something called Trusted Housesitters for a while now.
[00:39:54] and, you know, if w- I keep an eye out on that, and if there's a really cool destination we've not been to and the pets look amazing, then we're like, "Okay, let's give that one a try." You know, and that way we get to explore a place, see if this is somewhere we wanna come back to. But you also get a chance to take care of pets, which we can't do because we don't have our own pets at the moment.
[00:40:15] So, like, for me, that just feels like a win-win. I'd rather be somewhere taking care of some, you know, some cool animals in, in an Airbnb that might, you know, you know... It's also just as awesome, but I quite like this approach
[00:40:30] Kym: I love that.
[00:40:31] Yeah.
[00:40:31] Lisa: also sometimes get to meet the owners as well, and they can tell you some intel about the local area.
[00:40:36] So yeah, that's also, you know, if people are wanting to explore, that's a way to kind of slowly dip their toe in the water. Just make sure you choose somewhere that definitely has strong Wi-Fi.
[00:40:50] Kym: Yes. Oh my gosh. So I did that one time, Trust- I'll share the story. I, I did TrustedHouseSitters one time. I'm allergic to cats, and really all pets, so I don't have pets. But I found a TrustedHouseSitters that was, like, pet-free. They just wanted a house sitter. And 'cause I've always, I'm always looking on there 'cause I'm just like that.
[00:41:08] And it's free, right? I mean, you just go watch somebody's house, and you get to go to a cool area. So we got there, and oh my God, the place was so dirty.
[00:41:17] Lisa: No.
[00:41:19] Kym: It was like... And, and the air conditioner was broken, and there was like a swarm of, like, ants in the pantry. Like, I was
[00:41:25] Lisa: my gosh.
[00:41:27] Kym: no way we can stay here," you know?
[00:41:30] So that was my one experience with TrustedHouseSitters, just because, you know, I'm allergic to so many things. But it's... I've heard so many people talk about how awesome that is. I wish I could just, like, go and do that, 'cause I feel like that's just how I would live if I could, you
[00:41:44] know? Just go from sit to sit to sit. It's awesome. Yeah. That was my one experience, 'cause I was like, "Well, oh my God, I found one where you don't have to... There's no pets," and I was so excited, but it didn't work out. But anyway, that's my
[00:41:56] Lisa: I th- yeah, and I think that's, you know, that's how I learned. I rocked up some... it was beautiful, but the, the Wi-Fi just wasn't, like... w- maybe they had changed the provider or maybe there was something, I don't know, that had happened. They were really cool about it. They said, "Okay, there, there's another part of the house that you can use,"
[00:42:14] Kym: Yeah.
[00:42:15] Lisa: that they don't usually open up to their house sitters.
[00:42:18] So they were really adaptable with it, but I just thought, like, if they weren't, like, I had... the first call I did I, I took from my car 'cause I was like, "Ah,
[00:42:27] Kym: no.
[00:42:28] Lisa: where can I drive where my phone signal is um, is good enough?" Luckily, that was a supervision or consultation session, not a client session. But yeah, so I think that, you know, as with anything, like we could rock up at an Airbnb and have the same issue.
[00:42:46] So I think it's always like having a, a backup plan. But I'm sorry you had that experience. I've,
[00:42:51] Kym: know, and I, I just thought I'd share that. I don't know why. But yeah, it's just my one thing, but I love that people do that and can do it, and just like, I talked to s- well, I interviewed somebody on here, she's like, "Well, I'm in Maui right now for, six months in this mansion on the water watching these, like, goldfish."
[00:43:08] I was like, "This is the coolest thing I've ever heard of."
[00:43:11] Lisa: So cool. And that's it. Again, like there's so many different ways of doing it. Like one thing I was doing was workaways, but there you've gotta be really careful about checking, you know, is it gonna match? Like I w- I like to do that 'cause I like to be involved with nature and getting stuff done and learning different trades.
[00:43:28] But then just make sure you do have somewhere confidential where you will have enough signal to continue to do your sessions. But like sometimes you rock up somewhere and it's just not ideal, so you've just gotta say, "Sorry, this is not working," and then find somewhere else. So yes.
[00:43:45] So we're in Italy. We also visit, uh... travel to visit family. Well, we've got family in different parts of the world, so that is super exciting to be able to go to the UK or go to South Africa or wherever family might be, or friends. So yes.
[00:44:01] Kym: That's the plan. I love it. Well, thank you so much for taking the time today. Super interesting conversation, inspirational. I'm sure people listening are gonna be like, "Oh my gosh, that's amazing." And you'll inspire somebody else. Even with that womb twin thing, like, I, I mean, I guess I've heard of it, but I never really, thought about it much, you know? Like, how it affects people, but it makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
[00:44:22] Lisa: Yeah, and I think with a lot of prenatal stuff, like we, we don't always spend time checking in with our clients when we first, you know, do an intake. Like, do you know if there's any, like, trauma from your mom's pregnancy with you? So I think that's also worth just being tender around. And when I was doing the ADHD training, they were mentioning like three main causes that the...
[00:44:46] I don't know, these things are always evolving as we find out more. But I guess, yeah, it could be genetic. It could be from trauma in pregnancy. But they also spoke about, like, concussion can onset, like, something that is really similar
[00:45:01] Kym: Oh, interesting.
[00:45:03] Lisa: But it makes sense if it's to do with the prefrontal cortex. But anyway, we could carry on talking forever, but Kim, thank you so much. I'm so excited to finally meet the person who helped me realize that there's this thing called Traveling Therapists. I think that's so awesome. So thank you
[00:45:18] Kym: That's awesome. Oh my God, I love it. Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you. Thanks for saying that, and thanks for
[00:45:24] Lisa: And thank you. Yeah, thank you also for all the amazing resources you have out there. Like, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, Kim's up to this now." Like, oh, that's so cool. That's so helpful. So yeah, keep, keep doing what you're doing. It's really awesome. Yeah.