118. From State to State: A Therapist's Tale of Mobility, Military Life, and Professional Licensing with Vanessa Lech

118. From State to State: A Therapist's Tale of Mobility, Military Life, and Professional Licensing with Vanessa Lech

In this podcast episode, we discuss Vanessa's diverse experiences ranging from her military background to her challenges and insights as a traveling therapist. Vanessa shares her transition from a traditional therapist to embracing a nomadic lifestyle, largely influenced by her and her husband's military relocations. From State to State: A Therapist's Tale of Mobility.

She delves into the difficulties of obtaining licensure across different states, a challenge exacerbated by her frequent moves, and shares her personal stories of adapting to various professional and personal environments. Vanessa's journey illuminates the intersection of military life and mental health practice, highlighting the unique challenges faced by military spouses in maintaining and transferring professional licenses.

Key points:

  1. Vanessa's background includes a significant military influence, which has shaped her career path and personal life, leading to frequent relocations and the necessity to adapt her therapy practice to various state licensure requirements.
  2. She discusses the intricacies of navigating state-specific licensing laws for social workers and other professionals, which often complicate or hinder the ability to practice in different locations.
  3. Vanessa advocates for more streamlined processes for military spouses to maintain professional licenses across states, reflecting on recent legislative efforts aimed at easing these challenges.

Military Allowances for Telehealth Spouses: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/turning-tide-wins-active-duty-military-spouse-careers-vanessa-lech--gpm1e/?trackingId=nCus4bm5Q%2Fa4XZB5iiOXgg%3D%3D&lipi=urn%3Ali%3Apage%3Ad_flagship3_next_best_action_suggested_for_you%3BiYijDhFNTCmB%2Bj3FIfCYOw%3D%3D

About Vanessa Lech:

Vanessa Lech is a highly skilled social worker who has assisted individuals across the United States. She brings expertise in various areas, including social work, the American legal system, and local communities. 

Vanessa Lech is an Active Duty Military Veteran and an Active Duty Military Wife, born into a family with a proud history of serving in the U.S. Military. During her career as a social worker, she has traveled due to the military and her own independent choices.

She holds several credentials, including an N.C. license as a Clinical Social Worker (LCSW), a Master's Degree in Social Work (MSW), a Master's of Science in Health Sciences with a Concentration in Public Health, and a Bachelor's of Science in Health Care Management. 

Vanessa is passionate about sharing valuable information that can benefit individuals and society. She is devoted to supporting and empowering individuals of diverse backgrounds, ensuring their unique needs are addressed and their voices are heard. Her unwavering commitment to advancing social justice has earned her a reputation as a caring and impactful advocate for those in need.




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Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Travelling therapist Podcast. I'm really excited today to have Vanessa, leche here with us. I hope I said your last name, right? I'm notorious for butchering last names, here with us today. And Vanessa, I would love for you to introduce yourself and let everybody know how did you go from being just a traditional therapist to a traveling therapist?


Yep, so my name is Vanessa lac. It's pronounced le que vamos spa. And so how I went from being a traditional therapist to a digital nomad therapist. So the reality is, I don't think I've ever really truly been a traditional therapist. In essence in Bhutan from the day I graduated from my master's degree in social work in 2014. It was my second master's degree at that point in time. It this was not my first career at all. And I was not like a super, you super, super young adult I was by the time I graduated in my late 20s. At that point, I want to say I was 28 or 29, roughly years old. And I'd been in the military active duty I had worked since I was a teenager in some way, shape, or form, and always been very career focused. And so always had that focus, even though I was, you know, married and whatnot throughout most of my adult life. And so my first job was actually at the US Department of Veterans Affairs, Veterans Health Administration, specifically, I deeply regret taking that position that was a social worker person. And so that was kind of how the beginning of me being a non traditional quote, therapist, or social worker, I guess you could say, in this occupation. And so I was in North Carolina at the time, I'm here now again, in North Carolina, I did not want to be this is my least favorite state I've ever lived in my entire life. multiple states. I've traveled overseas before graduating school and stuff like that on my own backpacking across Western Europe. And there was an opportunity that I thought would be a great opportunity to work with the military community, I was wrong. And I thought I would have like this whole career at the VA basically. And so it was Albuquerque, New Mexico. And it was honestly in New Mexico, Albuquerque, New Mexico, New Mexico is the most beautiful place I ever lived. I lived there for about a year. So it's like the positive that came out of it. The VA was a nightmare. But the positive was, the people are so friendly in the community, the local people, not the Viet, the local people. And the food was amazing. I discovered this thing called Green Chilies, which I never really heard before. And now I like love it. I eat it to this day and so many different things, recipes, my husband makes things for me with green chilies. And then because of that, I love I'm really into fitness because of health basically. So I do what I can Deeley. But back then Swiss was gosh, you know, almost 10 years ago now. They had a lot of cycling trails. And so I would just in every moment I wasn't working, I was cycling and so I would go in Santa Fe, New Mexico, I take the train from Albuquerque, I'd ride my bike from my apartment, to the train, get on the train with my bike, go to Santa Fe, I'd spend the whole day cycling, I would literally cycle for like probably upwards of 50 miles in the desert. And of course to be clear because women getting attacked when outdoor fitness is a real thing. I carry weapons with me. I don't like emergency equipment, weapons, everything. So if I never got attacked or anything, no one ever tried to talk me about how they would have been for a rude awakening. So I really enjoyed it. It was a great experience out of New Mexico. I left that position. I quit my job and left New Mexico not because I didn't love New Mexico. They had like coffee festivals, chocolate festivals, mac and cheese festival. It was just a great place. It was really wonderful life by luck, because it was war retaliation, and I wrote a whole book on it called Veterans Affairs whistleblower retaliation, right.


Oh, my was amazing.


I just recorded the audio book on that. Oh, my God. Sorry


about that. So yeah, all this stuff. You're up, like making mental notes. I want to talk about that. I want to talk about that. What I'm talking about that, right.


So that was how it began. Now. That was how it began. That was my move. And that was just independent of me just wanting to pursue a career and thinking this was such a great opportunity. I was wrong. It wasn't okay. And but the New Mexico was just, I mean, I still think it's the most beautiful place I have ever lived or visited. Really.


Yeah. We just drove through there. It's gorgeous. Yeah. So so just to back up a little bit just to kind of understand how you're making all that work. So when you're a social worker with the military did you have to get licenses that like a license in each state that they transfer you to? Or or how does that work? I'm just curious, like, where are you licensed? And how does that How did that work for you moving all around like that?


So when I was doing active duty in the military, I was not a social worker, I went to social work. After I got concluded my active duty military service now it was basically like a health inspector, such as the military occupation doesn't did not translate at all to the civilian world. I did want, I was looking into staying in the military, actually, because I come from a military family, my husband, you know, he was actually the I was active duty. That's how we met. And but it's hard to explain, in some way, disagree, but basically, I was just in a dead end job in the military, they're very rigid hierarchy system, that's very classist, in my opinion. And just the reality of that situation. And a lot of the behavior, there was a lot of abuse in the military, historically, I was subjected to a lot of that abuse of power and stuff like that. And there was was when I was in when I was subjected to part of it was this assumption that you must be the dumbest person on the face of the earth, if your junior enlisted, and I feel like they're, well, I know, I was discriminated against on the basis of gender, for sure, that come in other factors. Because there aren't that many women in the military. And it's just very complicated. There's a lot of misogyny historically, is what I was subjected to. So my opportunities were really limited. I tried to look into like becoming a nurse or a social worker and trying to like move into that. And I was not supported in that as far as like, No one told me like, no one denied me like said, No, you cannot do this officially, but just the behavior was so oppressive, and just abusive, that like, I was no longer motivated to pursue a military career because of that.


Yes, I got you. Okay. So because of all of that, that you went through you that is I guess that's when you went back and got the second master's and just decided I'm just got out the military got out of the military and just I'm gonna


pursue debt in the civilian world, Sep non military totally. Now, if you aren't, I and you, some people probably think I'm like, a deranged or something. You know, I know, you may think this, but I actually after I became a social worker, like, got my master's degree was about to get my license. And after I got my license, I looked into possibly going back military as a licensed clinical social worker, in the like, I looked at a number of options out to active duty, sure, guard. And I decided not to do any of that, for several reasons, you know, the internet obviously, has really changed. And so I was able to make really informed decisions about not going in, versus when I joined when I was 19 years old, the first time, which was almost 1919 years ago, now, roughly, there just wasn't as much information. And so you really couldn't make these level of informed decisions about much of anything. And I realized that basically, a lot of the terrible things in the military hadn't changed. In fact, I'd learned from other people that some things have gotten worse. And I'd wanted to go back into like, help other service members with their mental health. But because of what I was realizing was going on with the military, and just federal government, poor leadership, I decided not to go back in, had I gone back in and when you go in as any kind of occupation, if you hold a license in one state, with the federal government, like the military, specifically, that's treated like as good for like, in general, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, one is good law, because it's federal. So you don't have to get a license in every state the way you do in the civilian world. It's very different.


Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that totally makes sense. So where are you licensed right. Now? You said you're sitting in North Carolina right now. Are you licensed in North Carolina or Okay, yeah. Yeah. Okay.


That was so complicated. And God, like comes to traveling and the lights, nightmare. And so I got a master's level license in New Mexico to work out there. Okay. That was, that was like an actually, at the same time had a license as an associate level in North Carolina. And so my plan was to become duly licensed. And both days, because I'd already started. Thank you whistleblower, retaliation, that did not happen. So what happened is I ended up exiting New Mexico, and starting my hours over again, just fine. Oh, my license I have now. And all the work I did out there accounted for nothing. And I eventually just let that license scopes. I was like, how am I ever gonna finish up those requirements? Because you don't have state specific?


Yes, right. Oh, my gosh, what a nightmare. Oh,


so I'm licensed in North Carolina's LCSW now and that's currently the only state I'm licensed in, but it's not for lack of trying, because I haven't looked elsewhere.


Yes. Okay. And you thought about it. Now is North Carolina, the one state I feel like I've heard this for LCSW in North Carolina that they want you still sitting in the state when you're giving services like they did they allow you to be out of the state like that. Providing services back to clients in North Carolina. Okay,


I'm not aware. And this is not legal advice, but to the best of my understanding. Yes. Yeah, that's my understanding. Like I recall looking at those Mark Borden. Yeah. license that because the, again, not a lawyer, not legal advice. I just remember during COVID, 2020 timeframe. Yeah, on this miniature board, which they have much longer title by the way, North Carolina. They were hugging lot questions as a lot boards were about practicing across state lines more than usual. And I remember them saying, like, outside of what the emergency order ended up being temporarily, outside of that, you have to be licensed in the state to practice in state, even if you're sitting outside the state. So I never saw anything about how you had to sit in the state to provide services in the state. I've never heard of that before for social work. For social work.


Okay, I could be wrong. Because there yeah, maybe a different


licensee. But like, if they change the law, please let me Oh, me.


I look into it. I'll look into it after them to do but I'm saying I'm like, I mean, it's not that state. But But anyway, it's an archaic rule if it is, anyway, because it's ridiculous that we can't be sitting wherever we want to when we see our clients, in my opinion, but I'll look into it for you too, because I want to look it up now that I'm talking about it. But anyway, yeah, that'd be good.


Because I had, you're like,


I should probably do that. That's so funny. Well,


I thought I didn't know I thought he was you actually be


totally right. You could be totally right. Because I mean, who knows? I just like implemented a rule in the traveling therapist, Facebook groups, people just put stuff in all the time, but no evidence to back it up. It's like, oh, yeah, yeah. It's like, it's like people, you know, it's like, Well, I heard you can't do this, or you can't do that. That's why I tried to ask in these interviews, too, because I want to know, like, do people actually know the information? So I could share it with people that yeah, I'll try to look it up to


be I mean, I'm not saying is isn't like for other occupations, but like this, you know, how there's different boards. So there's different occupations. We all have different rules. So for me, I believe the answer is yes, I can as long as I'm licensed in the state for other people. I don't know. Yeah. For other organizations.


Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'll look it up. And it changes all the time, too, which is so infuriating for people, it's so hard to keep track of all that stuff. It really is. But anyway, with all that being said, so are you traveling some? Or are you just kind of settled right now in North Carolina, like, how's that part going for you with the therapist piece.


So things feel a lot more stable now than they have ever probably in the past, I'm being honest with you with that, I still do travel and stuff, I've become an RV enthusiast, which actually leads me to why one of the other moves I had, so I lived in I'm gonna be in the Navy military basics have nothing good to say about it, really. But my husband was relocated due to the military after this was more recent history after New Mexico long after that. And I joined him sometime thereafter, after I finished up what I need to hear with my licensing and stuff. And I did I practice remotely when I was out there back here. And that kind of goes to my trying to get licensed in other states again. So I tried to get licensed in that state that I was in and another state that we thought we might be going to really the military stuff. And I faced nothing but like obstacles with it, just like 1000s of dollars in fees a couple years to try to get this license. Now they passed the federal law. And it's been a lot of time talking about this running about this online lately. In 2023. It was passed and there was a lot of legislation developing that's recently passed and in the works in different states on this topic for active duty military spouses and servicemembers in some cases as well, getting their occupational licenses recognized across state lines when they move because of that military service component. So Had that been enacted, which is, by the way, 30 years overdue, in my opinion, I would have been able to have a license recognized in that state, and in the other state that we are possibly going to end up in. And it's very convoluted law, though, because it looks like these licensing boards just don't want to cooperate is the bottom


where it is awful. I mean, all these Compaq all these compacts are in the works. It's like let's just make it a national compact, please.


Yes, yes, I agree with Yeah, I agree with you and I I like I've talked and written a link to this topic. Like I firmly believe that a lot of these rules with different occupations in the way they regulate whether you're talking about lawyers or any other occupation or mental health whatever is more about power control and money and less about protecting the public interest. And I do think that there are obviously I do support licensing I do support like rules and ethics and it is important otherwise you're gonna have other people's call themselves, whatever which I see that all the time already without the right which are the men By backing, but there is a line that should not be crossed. And you know, for example, I think it's important that you're culturally competent where you're practicing, like, I would not be willing to practice in a state where I have not spent substantial time and have substantial knowledge. But you know, like New Mexico, I lived there for a year became very familiar thyra, you know, North Carolina, I've lived here, you know, often for 10 years, roughly, because the military, I'm from, you know, Florida couldn't get licensed there without jumping through a bunch of hoops I grew up there, you know, I lived in another state in the state I was at by the military base, I would have been like the only licensee and private practice in that entire area, they were that short, they had no mental health practitioners virtually not areas, a very remote area. And so it's like, they're really hurting the public interest with these goofy rules that they want to enforce, basically. And when I contacted the licensing board in that state, they laughed at me. They literally laughed at me when I let them know of my situation, being an active duty military spouse trying to I was living there, I was trying to get this license recognize, and I just gave up on it. I was like, I just have no stress as it is. I don't need to be dealing with this. But how I handled living out there when I was living by that military base in a different state was I basically kept my license in North Carolina and I practice remotely and, you know, operating that way. Yeah, for the time being and it be extended, it was supposed to be seven months. And it was extended to like, God, over two years, we're out there was it was a mess. And that's how we ended up in the RV. RV enthusiast. Because because the military housing situation was a nightmare. I've written about that a little bit as well as just if you guys don't know I'm talking about and they were taking all this money out my husband's paycheck. We're living in a place that I would don't think it wasn't adequate for adults shuts shelter, much less humans. So we moved out fairly quickly. It because I was desperate to get out of there. I was like, We need to stop what I'm being bled out by this government contractor who's also siphoning from taxpayers as well. And we need to get the hell out of here. And so I didn't we weren't really an RV was despite growing up in Florida, and we bought one just before 2020 happens. And we got a real good deal. We're really lucky. You got to like what we got to call what the deal is sit there for a while. And we moved into this thing was it's embarrassing story. It was a great RV. We still have it. It was like 25 feet, okay. And I thought I mean this thing for seven months, mostly by myself. My husband's gone a lot working with my two little dogs. No, we were in this thing for like, I want to say like two years with my two little dogs and 2020 No, like people were like quarantines and we quarantining my husband this thing is tiny thing in the woods. Oh, my and we did travel and so that was really positive. But like, I it's just a miracle. We didn't kill each other and say,


did you want to kill each other? My friend amber light, and she, you know, her husband bought a van. And she's like, Yeah, we're gonna live with the van meet my husband at these two huge dogs. And I was like, I was worried. Absolutely, never do that.


Yeah, we remodeled the inside of ours during a snowstorm because my husband got bored, basically. And so it became more spacious. It really is like a very small efficiency apartment. And it is divided up better than most travel trailers. You know, it has like a separate king size bed and separate bed room, and the bathrooms on the opposite side, thank God and in the kitchen living in the middle. So it was a good setup, we did travel and then I ended up renting office space in the local town from these very nice lawyers that took me in basically, and they were the wall. And that's how i i was able to continue working at all because I had times where I just I just took breaks because of the COVID thing and traveling and the military thing. It was very stressful. That


sounds awful. Yeah. That was really stressful. Be like happy and healthy now. That's good. Yeah. Evil


now definitely funny. Good not to be living at 25 foot trailer indefinitely with Oh my God, my dogs and my husband and stuff.


Yeah. Oh my gosh. Wow. So you've you've really had to make a lot of different situations work despite all these restrictions that these licensing boards put on us? Oh, my gosh,


yeah. And thank God for the Internet becoming what it is because there's so many more people online, even post COVID working and socializing and networking for professional purposes than ever before. So that actually opened up a lot of doors because I still live in a pretty remote location, not as bad or so I just think God that the internet is what it is. Mainly, look what we're doing right now. You know,


seriously, I'm sitting in Palm springs California, like for a week? Here in America? Yeah, I'm in America right now. Yeah, it's just I mean, it just blows my mind every day that we can live this life and still make money and work. And all of that is really cool, is it? Well, miracle.


And I'm getting ready to move again. But this isn't because of the military, but it's really it is, but it isn't. It's like it is because of more for the military, I would not be to needing to move. But it's also because I don't like North Carolina. And so we're getting ready to move on I am as soon as possible, which was the real estate marketing was a little bit difficult. And so yeah, also, you know, dealing with, you know, this being in this occupation, and working remotely is one of the benefits is the fact that I'm not tied to a specific location and having to worry about moving a physical office with in person, people to another place. So it's really,


gosh, it's amazing. Yeah. I wanted to ask you about that. That military law you're talking about, is that actually been passed for military spouses? Is that actually been passed? Or is that something that's in legislation right now? Oh, do you know the name of it so we could tell people about it? So


let me pull up my links. Basically, it is. It is a part it was an amendment to the service members civil Relief Act, which is a federal law. It's been in law for many years now. So it was added as an amendment. It has an acronym I want to see the acronym is M S. R. Eva, maybe screwing that up. It's stands for personnel, something or another. I've written an article on LinkedIn. I referenced it a lot, because this topic keeps coming up. People are asking me about a quite a lot lately about a major license. But that is the big one. It is not 100% Perfect doesn't apply to every situation. There's a lot of weird stuff. And I actually put out an article about the loopholes in the law, because it appears getting out a lawyer. It's not legal advice. Yeah. Yes, but But one of the problems I have with the law is the fact that it appears that there's a loophole where you can it says something like up to, I think it's like three years or something like that, almost like a temporary license of recognizing the license. And so one of the questions I have and concerns I have with these licensing boards acting the way they do the military spouse licensing, really fact, M S, L, R, A, and then the exact numbers is like 50 USC 4025, a pass and 2023. So it wasn't against an amendment to the servicemembers civil Relief Act. And then there's all that I'll get into state specific laws. So that in front of me right now, but what I wanted to say about it is, again, not a lawyer, not legal advice and stuff, I plan on researching this further. But it appears that doesn't give a permanent license appears that gives almost like I my words, not the laws, a temporary license for approximately three years is what I was reading for certain occupations doesn't interfere with compacts, either. So if you have a compact, I defer to that is what I was reading. But basically, my concerns licensing boards being as awful as what I've experienced, personally, professionally, is that they're going to be like, Oh, that's nice. We gave it to you, for the minimum, the maximum time required. Now, please leave our state when you go to seek a permanent one, because let's say a lot of people are these little tissue, larger military bases, even small ones will stay there a certain population and military will indefinitely. Or maybe if you're like me in there, do a certain occupation that we want to pick up that license and keep it permanently. And my concern is that they're gonna be like, Oh, that's nice that you were visiting, and we were mandated to give you this license for five years now you can leave, we're not giving you a license permanently. Goodbye. And I could just see this happening, because I have dealt with these licensing boards in different states. And let me tell you, most of them weren't friendly or hospitable at all, as a new license in multiple states right now. Yes, if they were so easy to deal with, you know, right,


of course. When I Well, that's all really helpful.


Also, their state specific laws that have passed as well. And Texas and Kansas specifically. There's also a landmark lawsuit that was won in Texas, with litigation over this federal law, which set the precedent that basically this law is very enforceable because the licensing board out there didn't want to recognize it. But in Texas, they have two Senate bills one was passed Senate Bill 1200, passed feels 19 Senate Bill four, two to pass the 2023 and basically it reinforces military spouses occupational licensing rights and needs and service numbers underneath that law. And then Kansas also passed this year just recently House Bill 2745. It removes all All occupational licensing fees for active duty military spouses and I believe servicemembers relocating due to military orders. And so they have really are trying that governor's will try and position themselves as a very military friendly state with regard to this. And also, her name's Governor Kelly, I believe in she's trying to get all the states in the US to join National Coalition to help military spouses obtain their occupational licenses across state lines. Now, look, regardless of military status, you know, and I make this clear, I think that the occupational licensing laws have gone too far with a lot of these things. I don't think it should be that hard. You know it as a nurse, a social worker, or a teacher to relocate to a different state or pick up a license to work when all we've ever heard throughout my adult life is what we didn't want mental health people. We need more nurses, we need more teachers, we need more and more and more, or did you have regulatory boards working against that public interest?


Exactly. No, I could not agree more. Yeah, and thank goodness, these licensure, compacts are really moving. I mean, I think LPCs I think September you can apply for it is what I'm hearing and LCSW they're working on it, you know, it looks like they're we're working on a licensure compact. Yeah, I don't know how far advanced it is right now. But hopefully, within a year or two, we're going to we already have side packed hopefully, we're gonna have the LPC is on board and the LCSW is with these compact licensures I'm


so jealous, the psych psych pack people because I see them really practice basically all over the US. But I'm so jealous. And the nurses have had some coupon pack for some time, but not all the states. Evidently I didn't even know that I thought was all the students. It's not versus most of them. But one of the concerns I have is with the Social Work packs compact coming out. And one of the concerns that I have, because I've seen this with the LPC compact that they have is these different compacts. While they're great. There can be rules limiting, like, for example, that you have to take another exam, and each of the states potentially, for that, you know, there could be excessive fees, or that one of the ones that really concerns me is that you have to hold residency in let's say in C we're primarily license it have almost like a temporary license to practices across state lines. But then when you say wait, what I'm about to do move to a different state than I'd be subjected to the whole licensing nightmare all over again. Exactly.


I know it's so packed, actually, to actually be able to use it, you have to be sitting physically in your home state for the side pack to apply. So if you're not physically sitting there when you're like, let's say, my home state is Virginia and I'm not physically sitting in Virginia, I cannot see clients in these other compact states is the way it really is right now that now the LPC one doesn't have that, that regulation associated with it. But for cypass Yeah, you have to be physically like grounded in that state to be able to use their compact, which is ridiculous to me. I just don't even understand it. You know? Wow, just yeah, yes.


I did not know that.


Yes, yeah. I wrote sigh packed and asked specifically because there's so many rumors about this stuff. I wrote them. I'm like, tell me if this is true. And they were like, Yes, this is true. And I wrote the LPC compact, the person that's heading that up? And they said, No, it's not going to be a requirement that you have to be sitting in your home state. So I was like, well, thank God. I mean, what's the point in these compacts if you can't move around with them? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So anyway, that's my soapbox about that.


I just wanted to add to that I did when it so I opened my first private practice in 2018, North Carolina. And originally, I did have an in person office in downtown Raleigh, but it quickly organically became a hybrid practice only because of just the need and also my inclination towards using technology in a way that makes sense, you know, practical purposes. Because I had situations where people were, like, for example, down at Fort Bragg area like military, and they couldn't, it's like a two hour drive to get to where I was located. My office, so did online for that, or, you know, I had people, somebody people got sick, so they couldn't come in person. So online, also a natural disaster. And so the bridge that needed to travel across was flooded for a period of time. So I couldn't get to my office. So I did it for that. And so that was kind of organically how it happened as obviously well before 2020. And then in advance of 2020 2019, when I knew that this military situation was happening, and there's a relocation upcoming, I transitioned everything online, just on my own that had nothing to do with 2020 because I took a break of practicing during 2020 because of just my own situation with the military and what was going on, but yeah, you know, it was really organic. And so I've been kind of now it seems like every practice is pretty much is online or hybrid. And it's just so interesting because when I started doing hybrid myself, I You wouldn't believe some of the nasty comments I got from.


I did it in 2018. And it was like crazy. It was just unbelievable. How are you? Hi, are all all online? Yeah, I just like left my office like even the group practice that was when they were just like, you can't do that. I was like, Yes, I can't do it. I'm doing it. I'll see you guys later. Bye. You know, but yeah, there was a lot of pushback. And then I always tell the story then when COVID hit they're all calling me up. How are you doing this? Can you explain this to me? How does this work? I was like, oh, yeah, you could do it. Yeah. So yeah, well, thank you so much for going in depth about all this I'd love if you would just say the name of your book again in case people want to check it out. Because I'm sure there's a lot of people that would help.


My latest is Veterans Affairs whistleblower retaliation are right there. You can find all the info about it plus a bag of chips over a woman military veteran.com And then my practice website, which is totally separate, by the way is divorcing. adults.com. Okay,


yay. And if anybody wants to get a hold of you like to talk about any of this, how would they reach out to you?


I would just say go my website divorcing adults.com. I have a contact page on both my websites it's easy to hit the button and you know send an email I'm also have a very strong presence on my strongest the place I'm just have the biggest online presence would be LinkedIn for sure. Apo Vanessa, so you can find that there as well. Wonderful.


Thank you. Thanks for taking the time to talk about this. I mean, it opens up a lot of conversation just around these compacts and how to navigate all this. And then also, like everything you've been through with the military. Gosh, I'm so glad you're so glad you like read this and offering it to other people to to give them information about how to handle this stuff, too. I'm sure it's highly needed. Thanks a lot. I appreciate you be here, fortunately, but thank you for being here.


Thanks for having me, Kim. Appreciate it.


You're welcome.

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