115. From California to Italy: The Challenges of an American Therapist in Italy with Juan Maillo

115. From California to Italy: The Challenges of an American Therapist in Italy with Juan Maillo

In this episode of the Traveling Therapist podcast, Kym Tolson interviews Juan Maillo, a marriage and family therapist who has ventured from practicing in the Bay Area, California, to embracing a new life in Italy. Juan shares his journey, detailing the transition from working for companies in the U.S. to moving abroad with his wife and navigating the complexities of setting up a new life in Italy. 

This discussion delves into the hurdles of acquiring residency, the challenges of working remotely as a therapist, and the intricacies of adapting to a new cultural and regulatory environment. Additionally, Juan touches upon his role as a professor at an American university in Italy, teaching psychopathology to university students, which offers a unique blend of his expertise in therapy with the educational needs of American students abroad.

Juan's narrative unfolds the emotional and logistical aspects of moving to a different country, including the decision-making process involving his family's future, the struggle to maintain a stable income, and the pursuit of personal and professional fulfillment in a foreign land. Despite the excitement of living in Italy, Juan candidly discusses the feelings of uncertainty, the challenges of cultural adaptation, and the considerations of potentially returning to the U.S. The conversation also highlights the importance of language proficiency and the impact of differing societal norms on daily life and work, underscoring the complexities of transitioning from a therapist practicing in the U.S. to navigating the professional landscape in Italy.

Key Points:

  • Juan Maillo details his transition from the U.S. to Italy, underlining the complexities of moving abroad.
  • He addresses the difficulties of adjusting professionally and culturally, including obtaining residency and practicing therapy.
  • Juan evaluates the impact of relocating on his family’s well-being and his professional stability in a new country.

Juan’s Bio:

Juan Maillo is a Marriage and Family Therapist with over 15 years of experience. Originally from Spain, he received his Master's degree in Marriage and Family Therapy from the California Institute of Integral Studies. He has worked in various counseling centers across the San Francisco Bay Area.

Juan's passion for psychology began early in life, as he naturally gravitated towards helping others. Growing up he often felt craved a sense of belonging and validation that didn't get from his people. Through self-discovery and therapy, he learned to become a caring presence for himself which he now brings to his work as a psychotherapist.

He specializes on working with anxiety, depression, and relationship issues with individuals. His main approach is Internal Family Systems which combines mindfulness and self-compassion in an easy-to-follow style. He also draws from his extensive training in CBT.

Juan Maillo Psychotherapy

www.easyteletherapy.com

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TRANSCRIPT:

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the traveling therapist podcast really excited today we have a very cool guest that's got quite a story. I'm so excited to dive in, because we have one, and I'm gonna bust up his last name. I just told him I'd mess it up, Matt, may you it's close enough, good. He's traveling therapist. And he's just got a really cool story. And I want to learn from him. And hopefully you guys will two of you want to do something similar to what he's doing. So one I'd love if you would introduce yourself. And also just share a little bit about how you went from being a traditional therapist to a traveling therapist.

So I'm a marriage and family therapist based in I graduated in 2013, in San Francisco. And for the longest time, I was practicing in the Bay Area, typically working for other for some company or another, not doing private therapy, mostly because I didn't want the hassle of running a business. And it's like, I want to focus on being a therapist and not having to focus on running a business. It seems. I've been thinking about for a while about moving to Italy, and I was I was in love with it. I lived for a year when I was in my 20s I think I was 2324 I lived in Florence with a student exchange. I've always wanted to come back. So I left her two or three years of thinking about it. And with the help of my wife, we took the leap. Wow,

that's so awesome. I love Italy, too. Oh my gosh, like, I've been a few places over there. And I just would love to go back. I just spent like a year just going all around Italy. I love it so much. So even before being in San Francisco, you were originally from Spain. Is that correct? And then you moved to the US. Okay, wow. So how long? When did you move from Spain to the US? And then I guess you started your your education, your career and then stay for a while. Right? So

I moved to the US roughly when I was 25 and met my wife who is American. I met her in Barcelona. And even though I'm from Granada, down south. Oh, wow. We met there. And a couple of years later, we decided to go to the US I was I have done a degree in pedagogy we call it or Education Sciences in in Spain, the equivalent of a BA and a master's. Not much of in the way of job prospects there. I was a server I worked at Burger King and McDonald's in Spain. Well, yeah, I figure you know, it's a five minute work as a server, I may as well do it abroad. It's more fun. So pick that up and and move to the US. And there you go. My MFT after a few years. That's

amazing. Yeah. So how does that I'm just curious. How does that work? Like visa? Perfect. Did you guys get married in Spain? And then like, did you come back into the US as like a, like a married citizen? I just don't have the visa works that way, or just what that process is like?

Yeah, there are different ways of getting your visa through marriage. What I did, and the time in particular turned out to be the best way without knowing which is Oh, wow, I first came to the US on vacation for like a month after a year of being together. We got married in the US. Okay, I came back to Spain and figure out the paperwork for my wife to be illegal because that was part of it. She was working as an illegal in in Spain for Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah. So we we fix our situation. And then when we decided to that we're going to come to the US. I started in from Spain, making the you know, the arrangements to get not necessarily we get a visa, right? It's you Americans, a three month visa and but to be able to live what I started to request is the green card, right? permanent visa in the US through marriage. Okay, by starting those things from Spain, it made it a lot faster. So it was a bit of work. I had to go to Madrid, the capital to go to the consulate and whatnot or the embassy. But once I did everything, you know the sameness interview where they ask you the things to see if you make a mistake, it's not that big a deal. Then everything was said and I came to the US and within a week with a stamp a special stamp in my visa and then in a week or two they sent me the the green card and that was it.

Oh, well. That's pretty easy. Yeah.

Yeah, all things.

So So do you I guess. I guess we'll get into Italy too. But do you still have dual citizenship? I guess what the US in Spain is Is that how that works? Okay.

So for a while that was only a green card holder, and only a couple of years ago is when I got my citizenship in the US. Okay, gotcha. Yeah, I can't remember. I think it's because my, my son, me, when my son was born, I got their citizenship and national, or when I started thinking about moving, I wanted to keep the foothold in the US anyways. And Spain fortunately allows for dual citizenship. Okay, so I'm able to maintain both and coming back to Europe, Europe via the European Union I can have with my Spanish citizenship, I can live everywhere. With some staff units with some bureaucratic annoyances that have been incredible are here, by

the way, maybe we should talk about that, too. Just so people know what to expect. Yeah. Okay, so So, all of that. So you got settled and everything, and then you guys decide we're going to move to Italy. Now we want to move over there. So what is that process? Like? What does that look like?

Gosh, that was one of the most difficult things we've done, to be honest, oh, it's my wife and our five year old and me. We have a house in Santa Rosa, California that we we bought and still there. And I was hoping that we could rent it for you know, furnished, but it's not common in the US. So I tried for months. And that wasn't happening. So finally, we had to empty the house to sell everything. That was a huge, huge part of it. If it wasn't for my wife, I don't think I could have done it. Just that.

It's a big undertaking sort through. Yes, yeah. Oh, my gosh, I can relate to that. Gosh, we still have a storage unit that's full of stuff. Despite multiple attempts to get rid of stuff, you know, it's tough, right?

It is alive, but you accumulate and we didn't want to do this storage, it felt like it was a waste of money. No knowing if we were gonna come back or when it's like, let's just get rid of everything and hope for the best for the best and take it from there. So we essentially got an Airbnb for a month. Okay. I started looking into apartments here in brugia. And I got so lucky I got really a good break because it turned out that a friend that I had made an American friend before I even moved to the US when I met her in Grenada 20 years ago, almost. She turned out the hand lifting Palooza and had a couple of friends still here. And she had the grace to introduce me through Facebook to this friend this one guy Jacobo, he's some some call him send Jacobo because he is so nice and so helpful. He also lived abroad. He helped me get apart and get an apartment, he came before I came, he came to visit the one that I wanted to check out and it turned out that apartment is where I'm going I'm actually staying right now. You know, show me around and eventually even gave me a job as a professor in an American University where he works. So things kind of worked out in some great ways.

Oh my gosh. That is amazing. Wow. Okay, yeah. Oh, yeah, it that's something people don't even think about. It's like you got to move to another country. But maybe it's sight unseen from the apartment you're going to live in or anything, you know, you just have to kind of do a leap of faith in a lot of cases and pick a place. So So back it up to your house and the US did, did you. You guys emptied it out? Did you end up renting it out? Or are you still do you still own it? Okay. Yeah, we're,

we were lucky that that sort of like sorted out and takes care of itself right now.

Yeah. Okay. Oh, my gosh, that's so interesting. Okay, so so then you get the apartment and everything. You've got the house settled in California? And what do you have to do as far as visa to go to move to Italy? Like, how does that work? What's the process? So

for me, it was just a matter of coming into Italy and getting the residency established, which was a pain in and of itself. I can explain more and for my wife has been a little bit more difficult and still is as well as for my for my son, he's in a limbo right now. They're both in a bit of a limbo. So in Italy, things are kind of complicated. Especially I think, if you're not an Italian citizen, per se, it's I know that a lot of Americans are getting their Italian citizenship through family and whatnot. Maybe that's a little bit easier. But to to, to get kind of recognized here and be able to, I guess to I can technically live here, but there are some things that I couldn't access like the healthcare, or, you know, other Yeah, bring my wife with me there give her sort of like access to a visa as what she would convey consider the spouse of a European citizen. That's the kind of visa she can get. So for that, I needed the residency. And for me to get the residency, I needed to get private insurance to show because I don't have a work contract here. So either neither is needed at work contract or private insurance. And a number of other things is not the internet here, as in having a website that gives you clear information, it's not as good as the US. And the bureaucracy in general is not as good. You have to call a lot of places talk to people go to a place that you told that is not there, make an appointment some way that you couldn't know beforehand. So it took some do some headaches, so I got it, and I got my residency and even my Italian identity card now. But for my wife, we've been here since August, so like seven months, she has an appointment for gosh, I think it's next month or so the first appointment to with immigration to review her application, we don't even know and they say that it takes a year in this city on these for that to be processed once you have that appointment.

Oh my goodness. Wow. Okay. But if she I mean, I guess she's able to stay until it's processed, right? It's not like something where you've only got six months, and you have to leave or, you know, just curious like,

right, right. So it's, technically she's illegal right now, because her visa as an American tourist expired after three months. And as such, for instance, during Christmas, I went to Spain. And my wife had to stay behind because we didn't know if she could go out of the country. And then at the airport, they would stop her and say your visa has expired. You cannot come back until you wait another three months or whatever. She's probably within Europe, she wouldn't technically be able, we don't know. We just didn't know what would have happened.

It's that shanigan thing, right? So it's like you could be 90 days in but then I think you have to be 180 hours or something like that. Right. Okay. Something like that. Yeah. Wow. Oh, my gosh. So she's just gonna hang out and not leave the country until this appointment in the process. Yeah. Oh, my God. Exactly.

Exactly. We don't know exactly what would have happened. Because now that I thought of it after the fact my son is in the same situation, because even though he has dual citizenship, technically, he doesn't have a Spanish passport yet. And that's in a whole nother limbo right now, too. So we will try to figure out if he can get how he can get the passport. If he has citizenship. He just needs to get a passport through the consulate or closest consulate and it's giving us a harder headache.

Now, oh my gosh, there's so many moving parts. Yes. So many. And we don't even I guess we don't even know like what happens in Italy. They figure out you've been there past the 90 days or something. I've never even heard what happens. I know we were just in the Dominican Republic. And they do have a It's a 30 day visa, but they just they allow you to overstay. They don't care. If you overstay, you just have to pay like a fine for every day over and that you stay. So when we get to the airport, they just like a big red X comes up on the screen and they make you go talk to somebody and then they basically calculate how many days you've been there. They just charge you and it's like, not expensive. It's like, I don't know. My boyfriend would kill me if I say that. Because he says I never had the details. Right. But it was like 20 pesos a day or something. So it was like $70 Each, I think something essentially for I think we stayed over like 30 days or something. So I always wonder how it works in other countries, like, you know, what happens if you overstay your visa? Yeah, I don't even know.

Yeah, no, I don't know. My my sense has always been that you technically can get flagged and then you may have a hard time to, in this case coming to the to Italy or the EU altogether, right? I don't know what could happen exactly. But it's strange because things are not always clear cut. Again, I think there's a difference in the US things are a little bit clearer, for better for worse. When we came in. We obviously came through the line of European citizens in the border. And I don't remember them doing anything to our passport, right? Typically the stamp when you enter, there's no stamps in our passports. And I'm not sure why we've looked them later to make copies that we needed to in fact show visa for the immigration And I was like, well, we don't have a visa the visa comes with a passport. There's not even a stamp. What what do you want me to tell you? And my son had no trouble going out of Italy and coming back. But I don't know if it's because he was a child and they just didn't care about his visa status. So I'm not sure simply bureaucratic ineptitude. Because that can happen here, too. It's for better and for worse, you know, I've been told things that are one way and then the or the other way.

Wow. So yeah. Sometimes I hear you. Yeah. I mean, it just makes me think of the traveling therapist, Facebook group, like I even tried to recently implement a policy like, like, let's just not say you could do something without like proof. Because every day in the group, somebody's like, you know, yeah, you're allowed to do that, or no, you're not allowed to do that. There's no evidence, you know, it's just hearsay. It's just constant hearsay. Yeah. And it's like, it's like, we need to be a little more specific about this. Because, you know, like you said, you hear one thing, you hear something else, and you find out like, none of it's true. It's something else completely. So it's quite the, quite the journey trying to get this information for each country, for sure.

It is, but I'll say, I've learned that you have to be comfortable. And I'm not. I'm the kind of person who likes to know what's up. Yeah, you have to learn to be comfortable with walking that line of not being sure if you're always in the clear, I mean, to have a plan and to have a sort of like contingency plan and idea of the risks. It's good. But sometimes you like there are so many things, right? Like the whole thing with the with the license. And when they tell you what you can and cannot do and what they not, don't tell you. So it's there's so much so much as that can mean anxiety. And I want to say that one of the biggest pushes forward, I got it from your podcast, one in the way of inspiration and two with an MFT, California licensed, who I heard have moved to Spain, actually. So it seemed like a similar enough situation. And he got in touch with her to ask her a few things that I could not figure out. I just couldn't how the insurance when it covers you. It doesn't cover you the color of the license board, which answer me in some cryptic ways. And she really clarified a couple of points that were really helpful for me. Oh,

I just got goosebumps. That's amazing that you were able to get information that way, and that it helped you on your journey. I just love hearing that. Really. Wow. So So you brought up licensing? That's something we definitely talk about on this on this podcast.

Thankfully you do.

So are you so you're an MFT licensed to California? Are you Are you still seeing your clients back in California right now? Or are you also mentioned being a professor in Italy? So I was just curious, like, what has that transition been like for you? And how are you managing all that stuff?

Yeah, so what I've kept things separate, I'm doing therapy with clients, with my clients in California. Okay, and I'm not seeing any clients right now here. Okay, because it's not super clear. In some ways. The idea is that here you have the figure of a psychologist and the figure of a psychologist, psychotherapist, you need to do on top of the psychology degree or something else some kind of a year to to become to be called a psychotherapist, I learned that recently. There is no there's the figure of counsel or marriage and family therapist that none of that exists, except for counselor has become an umbrella term for people that do it's common in Europe, people that have different degrees, but then take out do a two or three years Master's in Gestalt therapy or some therapy, some specific form of therapy, and it's similar to LMFT. But there's no recognition at least here. I know, in Spain, there isn't. And in Italy, there isn't. As a professional, there's no licensing board, there's no regulation. So you can be a counselor through one of these institutions that are not regulated, so it doesn't matter a whole lot. Oh, okay. So in that sense, I cannot be a psychotherapist, technically, or at least not an Italian secret psychotherapy holder. That's how they call it. Oh, yeah. And, and it's not in any ways it doesn't pay very well to work as a therapist here. It is not only the locals, because then you pay local prices. And the life is a lot cheaper here for every for every regard, you know.

Yeah, I've heard I've definitely heard that because people have asked me before, like, how can I see clients and it'll leave me there. And I'm like, I don't know. I've tried to research it myself. I just have never been able to find like clear documentation about, you know how that works. And if you can, like you said, there doesn't seem to really be an equivalent. Yeah, it's so interesting. And then of course, like Visa stuff, you know, it's like, can you work in the country? Can you earn money? Like what does that mean as far as taxes go? And? Yeah, but I guess you're working there as a professor right. So how does that work? I'm just, I don't even know, like to have a job there. Is it because you have the dual EU citizenship that you're able to just work there pretty easily? Or how does that work? Well,

that just to separate the two into jobs, the the tax status, for instance, if you stay in each country has more or less a rule more than a number of days in the country, then you automatically establish a fiscal residency and need to pay taxes. And I think that's, that's like four, I don't remember for six months out of the year, even if you break it in chunks, you stay more than a number of days, a number of months, and then you have to pay. And I will probably have to be I'm already talking to a special accountant that for expats, to deal with American side. And the Italian, there's unknown double taxation agreements, so I don't have to pay double taxes. But I have to file taxes in both countries and say, Hey, I'm paying this much here already. So don't charge me again. And God knows only on a specialist can tell you exactly how to do that. Right. So that yeah, that's that piece. I'm working here, whether depending, I think irrespective of your visa status, you can continue working in as in your US business, right? Yeah. And figure out their taxes depending on the day and the length of time. And then as a professor, yeah, the there's turns out within three minutes work of my house, there is an American University, which is where my friend works. And they need professors that speak English fluently and not like Italians that know English, and apparently a big advantage I had was both that I can speak English and teach and have an MFT. And also the apparently the fact that I have on European passport makes it a lot easier for them to hire me, as well.

Wow. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. So what are you what are you teaching? Is it like therapy based? Or is it something totally different?

No, you got right now I'm teaching just one class and if I stay next semester, I may teach something else. I'm teaching psychopathology. Oh, okay. Yeah, university students, I guess people are doing their, their undergrad. Yeah. Will there be a?

Wow, that's so interesting. Wow. Yeah. Americans

that come here for like a semester. And, you know, there's a lot of universities, this one has the reputation for being a little more serious and not as much a party zine. And they are pretty rigorous. They, they are pretty rigorous. They asked me to, to enforce having I think it was 40 or 50. Minimum pages of readings a week. Wow. Which is, I would say is pretty high.

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. I don't want to go to that university. No, just kidding. Wow. Okay, that is just really interesting. Um, so. So what about your wife? Is she able to work at all? Or is she not able to work? I'm just curious. Oh, you're like, oh, Lord, that's a whole nother okay, because

she's technically she's illegal here and, uh, hanging until her situation is, you know, arrange them fixed. She cannot technically she cannot work, although working in Italy, to some extent is very common to work under the table to the they call it that underground economy, then the percentage of the economy that they make that out to be is really big. I don't remember exactly. But it's sort of kind of uncanny. So she's not working. Now. She's teaching English. She was teaching English to a few people here and there. So just getting paid. Privately, you know?

So interesting. Yeah. So she, so she doesn't have like a remote job back in the US or anything like that. Because a lot of people ask me that all the time. It's like, okay, I know, I can work. But what about my spouse? What do they get to do? There's no way for them to make money, you know, when they're in another country. So. Right. Yeah. So interesting. Gosh, but it sounds like you guys are making it work, despite all these challenges. Yeah.

For the most part, yeah. That you know, we're right now we're at the point of considering are we going to come back next year. We have to do you know, get our kids to school and whatnot. Are we going to stay? She wanted to change careers. That was a part of the push to she. She was a teacher in the US for well, 13 years, I think. And now she's learning to become a coach. Just then you think yeah, and having some time to study but we're not sure if she's having a hard time actually adjusting to life here. Mostly feeling a little disconnected lonely, she said learning Italian and she I would say shorter level is medium. Yeah, about medium middle of the road. And that makes it harder and also as an American is not as easy for her as it's been for me.

That's so interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Well, so y'all are sort of contemplating? Should we just go back to the US or try to stick it out here and make it work?

Exactly. Yeah, we're definitely right now at a crossroads and a quick change. And within a month or two, we'll be making a decision.

Yeah. Gosh, it's such a journey. I hope you'll come back maybe and tell us what happens. And how it goes for you guys. Because I mean, this was the reality of it. It's like, gosh, you have these big dreams, like, Wouldn't it be fun to live in Italy? You know, but then it's like, all this other stuff. Just makes it really hard sometimes?

Absolutely. They are. So it feels bad to win with, in my mind, at least when I think about it. Like, I feel like I'm going to be a fail store, you know, of not going back to the US because things didn't work out. And I'll say it's determined to have part of the problem has been making enough money, because I started private practice when I came here. And I lost some of the networking when it came here. So it's been hard to develop the practice. And the job here, you know, helps, but it's only one class. That's part of the making the decision making process, is that not having a good, healthy income to sustain has in the long run.

Yeah, yeah. I hear that over and over again. Just private practice in general, and I don't know, are you a private pay clinician, or do you take insurance in the US?

Private pay? Private Bank? Yeah, sure.

Yeah, and that's a whole other issue, you know, the insurance companies are cracking down on where the clinician can be located. And private pay is harder for a lot of people, you know, so I just keep hearing this stuff come up over and over again. Yeah, it's not easy. And I hear what you're saying about feeling like a failure of us. You know, we were in the Dominican Republic, and we could not wait to come back to the US. After four months, it was like, Okay, that was fun. But we we miss the US. Like, it's easier, in a lot of ways. You know, like, you know, we have our cars and grocery stores, and, you know, any shop you want, you just go buy stuff that you need, you know, just you know, everybody wants to leave the US. But we were really like, gosh, we're glad to be back at away. Like, we just want to stay put in the US for a while. So I hear what you're saying. Like, it kind of feels a little bit like, well, you're at the traveling therapists you're supposed to, you know, just love being in all these countries. But it just by the end of our little stint over there. We were like, Okay, we need a little. Yeah, we just need like, the norm, what we're used to, how did they get?

But yeah, it's hard to justify another country? I don't know. Do you speak Spanish when you work? With you?

Very little. Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I was learning, I guess they say, Ooh, poketo Just a little teeny bit, you know, so I can I could communicate, basically, but nothing fluent, you know? Yeah. Right.

Because that that is kind of one of the first or the most obvious barriers, right? When you go somewhere else, it definitely makes a big difference. And I would say outside of the US, it's also more important to speak the local language, because things are not as well organized. Maybe maybe in Germany is not the same but or in England, but every every other country in southern Europe. And then sure, Latin America is like you need to speak enough to be able to, to understand things and then to become part of the fabric of the country. That's that's a whole nother level. And, yes, that's the only way that you can really move permanently. You have to become part of it in some way.

I say. Absolutely. And we have to adapt to the culture even. Even in the Caribbean. It's like, you know, time doesn't exist the same way. It's like, there's there's that, you know, Island time. And then like, like America tab or what are my time, you know, it's like, I have an appointment at this time. That's when the appointments supposed to start, but even stuff like that, it doesn't happen that way. You know, we'd I did a whole podcast episode, but it was somebody else that lives in the Caribbean. It's like kind of It's wild. And like you said, you have to adapt to it. You have to become part of that culture and the way things run and and like you said earlier, just try to feel comfortable with instead of like, kind of be a little uptight about it, because that is a little bit like that, like, you know, I say we're starting at this time. That's the time we start, you know, but it's not like that in a lot of countries. Yeah, it's just not Yeah, so. Ah, so many, so many things to learn and I just I appreciate you coming down to talking about it. It's just super interesting. And, you know, I'd be curious to hear if you guys go back, you know, and you know, it just too many too many barriers, because it does sound like a lot of really tough barriers. And then also sounds like your, your child is going to be starting school, I guess. And you'd have to figure out how to make that work. If you stay over in Italy.

John, I'm happy to go into more into the way that we're trying to make the decision. Okay, I'd love to hear Yeah, my son, in fact, did the kindergarten here last year. And we already signed him up for school to start Elementary. And that's kind of figured out at least we have it we have this bar and my wife was blind for him to go to school there in the US to also to make sure they have a spot here, right, you kind of have to do these things. You can't wait when you have a kid, you know, have that backup. And that part is fixed. But the difficulty is between the money, her feeling lonely. Those are the two biggest, I would say moving pieces that make it hard. For me, as you can imagine, my identity is is not not regular identity in the sense. I didn't grow up in between two countries, I was solid in Spain until I was in my 20s. But most of my adult life, I've spent it in the US. My mind functions in both ways. I have a foot here and a foot there. And now I'm in Italy, which feels comfortable enough to Spain, I constantly comparing it to the US. Then it annoys me all the inefficiencies that are here. It's incredible how inefficient it is. And sometimes it's like, you don't want to make money, it makes you things like this store. Why don't they have a website where they have at least clearly the products and the prices or whatever, they close a lunch when people would come most. And it's like, the value over making money. The idea I think is underneath it all people value having a good life. Right. And I'm grappling a lot with that. What is more important to me, because that was part of why why was nostalgic about coming to Italy came back to Europe is in the US. In California, I would say even more in the Bay Area. There's this mentality array of work, work, work, there's work, and you can make money, but everything is expensive. And there's this kind of hamster wheel that that everyone is encouraged to go to get into a very comfortable hamster wheel sometimes. But yeah. Right. So these are the things that have been going through my mind and trying to make a decision right now I would say prefer to stay for another year, because it's being really hard to kind of get settled. And it would be helpful to kind of be able to relax and enjoy. But before making a decision, that would be my preference. But my wife is having a harder time. And another thing that I've come to realize we've had our differences in our relationships, married for 18 years. And it's been really nice to reconnect and rediscover that, you know, the most important thing for me comes down to is be with her and be stay well together. Right? It's like, you know, I prefer this. But if you really can't make it here, let's go back. It's fine. Yeah. And it's nice to have a certain clarity about that. And I don't regret in any way, even if it doesn't work right to have made this this beep

Yeah, I love that. That that is. That's definitely part of the journey is being with a partner and you know, having different dials in different ways you think about things and what feels comfortable to one might not feel comfortable to the other and trying to negotiate that constantly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know. I think we could have a whole nother episode on that. Like, how do we manage all that? Yeah, no, I know. It's tough. But it you know, it sounds like you guys are solid and you're making it work. And you're gonna just do what's right for the family eventually, you know, and and you took you took the leap to see how it went to, which I think is cool, you know, regardless of where you show up, or end up back to Yeah, it's really cool. Yes,

that kind of thing that when you're 50 or 60, you look back and you don't regret having done that. You might regret not having done it. Right.

Exactly. It'll be like remember that time we lived in Italy. Wasn't that cool? Yeah. Oh, I love that. Well, thank you so much for being a guest and how would people reach out to you they wanted to talk to you or or, you know, work with you in some capacity.

Yeah, I think the easiest way would be through my websites, because I have everything there may my phone number, my email, and I guess that's it. Right now I'm not much in social media. So my website, it's easy. Like the word easy. teletherapy.com.

Website. Yeah. Easy. teletherapy. I like that. Thank you. Very cool. Well, thank you so much. And we, like I said, love to have you back another time, once you guys decide where you're going to be or how it's going to work out, you know, especially these logistics around, you know, the visa is and trying to figure out taxes, and just all of that be super helpful. I know that there's probably people listening are feeling the same way or might have the dual EU citizenship and you know, a spouse it isn't and how do you manage all that? Just really interesting. Yeah, it's

complicated. Yeah. You're welcome to come back. We're just about to do the to get get ready with the taxes. So by in six months, whether you stay or we leave, we'll know a lot more about that part of it of the deal, too.

Yeah, that'd be super interesting. That'd be really helpful, I think to listeners for sure. Well, thank you for your time today.

Thank you Kami, was a real pleasure.

Thank you.

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