Everything You Need to Know About Liability Insurance for Traveling Therapists

Every single week, someone in the Traveling Therapist Facebook group asks the same question: what do I do about liability insurance when I'm traveling? I'm replaying one of the most listened-to episodes on the show because this question never stops coming up.

In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, I walk through what your liability insurance actually needs to see happen for you to stay covered, what changes the second you start seeing clients outside your home country, and the questions you should be asking your provider instead of guessing. I also get into what to do when local rules get murky and what your options are if the whole thing starts to feel like too much to manage on your own.

In This Episode, We Explore…

• What actually determines whether your liability insurance covers you when you're not sitting in your state of licensure.
• The one rule most traveling therapists get wrong about where they're allowed to be located.
• What changes the moment you start seeing clients in another country.
• Where to look for coverage if you're building an international or expat practice.
• What to do if liability insurance starts to feel like more than you want to manage on your own.

Mentioned in the Episode:
Portable Practice Method: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
CPH & Associates: https://cphins.com/
HPSO (Healthcare Providers Service Organization): https://www.hpso.com/
International Therapist Directory: https://internationaltherapistdirectory.com/
European Association for Psychotherapy: https://www.europsyche.org/ 

Connect with me:

Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab

Subscribe to the Podcast:

Apple iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcast | Stitcher | Amazon | Castbox

______________________________

Sponsored by Berries:  Say goodbye to the burden of mental health notes with automated note and treatment plan creation! https://heyberries.com/therapists

Sponsored by Alma: Managing a private practice can be challenging. There are obstacles at every turn — from navigating the credentialing process, to managing finances, to finding new clients. That’s where Alma can help. Alma is on a mission to simplify access to mental health care by focusing first and foremost on supporting clinicians. https://helloalma.com/kym

______________________________

Transcript:

[00:00:00] hey, everybody, it's Kym here. I'm still off from recording new episodes this month because I'm traveling through Switzerland and Italy with my nephew modeling that traveling therapist life, being able to have multiple income streams and take time off when I want to and do essentially whatever I wanna do with my life, my time, and my money.

[00:00:19] So I'm replaying the episodes that got the most listens, and this is the single most asked question in my Facebook group. Every week, without fail: What do I do about liability insurance if I'm traveling?

[00:00:31] So this episode is like an answer in one place that I can just point people back to all the time 'cause I get asked this question so much

[00:00:38] I talk about which coverage actually protects you when you're practicing across state lines, what to look for in a provider like CPH & Associates, what to ask when you have a question or when you wanna find out the actual true answer. People ask the wrong question all the time, and I talk about that in this episode. And then what changes the second you leave the country

[00:01:00] So one quick note before I hand this over to you all. This episode originally aired a while back, and the insurance products and state rules do change, so of course always check it yourself. Don't just take my word for it, and treat it as your map, not your final answer to these questions that come up around liability insurance and where can you be sitting and all of that stuff.

[00:01:20] As far as I know, CPH & Associates are still supporting traveling therapists. The client just needs to be sitting in your state of licensure when you're seeing them if you want your liability insurance to cover you, at least in the United States Not the most exciting episode I ever made, probably one of the most useful ones. So have a listen

[00:02:45] Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist podcast. I'm your host, Kym Tolson, and today we're diving into a topic that I really haven't talked much about on this, on this podcast, but it comes up literally every day. There's a question about this inside of the Traveling Therapist Facebook group.

[00:03:13] I also was just developing a module inside the Portable Practice Method course that I'm getting ready to release, a beta release. I'm really excited about that, but it's a topic I have to touch on, and that's liability insurance. So every single day, somebody posts in the Facebook group and says, "What do I do about liability insurance?"

[00:03:33] So the answer is it's, it's sort of complicated, but sort of not complicated. So I wanna dive into it a little bit, talk to you about my liability insurance, which is CPH & Associates, what they told me, and then also do the disclaimer that, of course, this stuff is subject to change at all times. It's your due diligence to go and research this on yourself, get it in writing, keep a record of it with you in case anyone ever asks you, in case anything comes up where somebody is trying to take you to court or, you know, file a complaint against you.

[00:04:05] You wanna make sure you have really good liability insurance in place.

[00:04:08] So let's talk about why liability insurance is a non-negotiable for any therapist. If you have a private practice or you're starting a private practice, you probably have already learned that you're gonna need liability insurance.

[00:04:20] There's a couple out there, like the NASW offers liability insurance. There's one called CPH & Associates. That's my liability insurance. There's one, HPSO, I can't remember what it stands for, but if you Google liability insurance HPSO, you'll find it and it'll give you more information about how to get liability insurance.

[00:04:40] So, if a client files a grievance or a misunderstanding occurs, having coverage in place can save you from potential legal and financial troubles. It's also a good tool if, you know, you have compliance issues or if you're gonna work internationally. Liability insurance, they have lawyers on call. I think mine, I get two or three hours a year if I want to, through my liability insurance, just to ask a lawyer a question, so it's really important to have it.

[00:05:07] You need to protect yourself and your practice and all of that. Now, if you're insured through CPH & Associates, there is some great news for US-based therapists. I reached out to them, I sent them a message, and I just said, "Look, here's my situation. I'm gonna be practicing only in my state of licensure, which is Virginia, and I'm gonna be traveling internationally.

[00:05:29] I might be in a different location all the time. Is it okay for me to do that, and are you gonna cover me liability-wise?" And they came back and I can, you know, show it to you in writing if anybody wants to see it, but they came back to me and they said, "It's absolutely fine for you to do that as long as you are following the licensing laws of your state of licensure."

[00:05:49] So for me, the state of Virginia says the only thing they're concerned about is where the client is located at the time of the session. They have no rules or regulations about where I can be located. So CPH & Associates, all they care about is that the client is sitting in the state of licensure, 'cause that's what my laws say for my license type in my state, and there's no regulations around where I am.

[00:06:13] Now, if I'm following that guideline and the client is in the state of Virginia and they decide to take action against me, they will take action in the state of Virginia. So if I'm living in Japan and somebody decides they're gonna sue me, CPH & Associates is going to deal with the litigation basically in the state of Virginia.

[00:06:32] So I, you know, if there were any proceedings or anything, I would need to physically come back to the state of Virginia to face any charges that were brought against me to my licensing board or there's some sort of legal thing where I've got to go to court, all of that would take place in the state of Virginia, and that's the only place CPH & Associates is gonna cover that in.

[00:06:50] They're only gonna cover it if they find that I am following the rules and regulations that they set forth for me to do so. If you have any questions about that, please reach out to me. Of course, I'm not a lawyer. I don't work for an ethics board or, you know, a licensing board or anything like that. So as I said before, any of this can change at any time, and the crucial, crucial part is it's your responsibility to ensure that you understand and follow the guidelines set forth by your licensing board, and that you read your insurance policy or reach out to them, get it in writing, that it's okay for you to be located anywhere as long as your client is in the state of licensure.

[00:07:26] It's important to realize, and I say this almost in every episode in some form or fashion, it's all over the Facebook group, if you live in a state, not all states are the same. So you'll see people post in the Facebook group constantly saying things like, "Oh, it's not okay to, to practice outside of your state," or, "It's not okay to practice in this other state because of this or that."

[00:07:48] Don't listen to those first of all because half the time they're wrong. I go research it and I find that no, that's actually not correct and I have to go back and correct it. But the important thing is to ensure that you're being compliant, so you have to make sure you're checking with your licensing board about what your state allows, and then research the laws in your state, in your client's state to ensure that you meet their requirements.

[00:08:07] So what I'm saying there is you might be sitting in a different state, you might be sitting in a different country. You have to always research where you're sitting to make sure it's okay for you to give services back to your state of licensure while you're sitting in that state. For example, Texas, this is not a law anymore, Texas used to have on the books the, the, the licensing board used to say a clinician cannot even sit in the state of Texas and give services back to somebody in their state of licensure like, say, Virginia, that you're not allowed to do that unless you're licensed in Texas also, which makes no sense, but they had that on the books for quite some time.

[00:08:45] So you, and you'll still hear people saying that in the Facebook group, but it's actually not true. You need to research that stuff, but you need to do your due diligence for where you're sitting and where the client's sitting. Have that written down, have that you ask somebody, and just keep a record of that.

[00:08:59] If you're in a different country, same thing applies. Reach out to the country, whoever the licensing board is in that country that regulates psychotherapy, and make sure it's okay for you to be sitting and delivering services back somewhere else. I just cannot shout that loudly enough. This is the most confusing thing for people.

[00:09:15] Every day somebody asks this question, so I just thought, "Why not just record an episode about this so you guys know exactly how to handle it. And of course, the Portable Practice Method is coming. It's c- has all this in excruciating detail. It's got checklists and walkthroughs on how to do this, the actual script to send to your licensing board and your liability insurance, so you know exactly what to do step by step to be completely compliant.

[00:09:41] Okay, and the next thing that people always ask is, "Okay, so what if I want to see clients in another country, or if I'm living in another country and I wanna see clients within that country?" So it gets a little more complicated. One, if you're living in a country and not in the United States but you wanna see clients in that country, of course you need to research what are the licensing rules and regulations in that country.

[00:10:05] Will my credentials even transfer to that country, and can I then start to build, you know, a client base? Let's say you wanna become an expat, you wanna get residency in another country. That's a whole totally different issue, and it is possible, but your liability insurance back in the United States is not gonna cover you if you do that.

[00:10:24] It's not an international type policy, so CPH & Associates, H- even through the NASW, they're not gonna cover you internationally. Some things you can do about that. If you are like, "Gosh, yeah, I don't even wanna see clients in the US anymore. I wanna be an expat therapist. I wanna see clients around the world" it, it is okay because, first of all, your state of licensure has no jurisdiction over what you do outside of your state of licensure, so they're only concerned about that.

[00:10:52] So what you have to do in that case is move outside of the United States and think globally around how to protect yourself if you're gonna be seeing clients. So, here are some, some ideas and thoughts around that, and of course, disclaimer, you've gotta do your own research around this to make sure it's accurate and up to date and will help you in your specific situation.

[00:11:13] First thing you can do, local professional associations. You can reach out to counseling or therapy associations in the country where your client resides or of the place where you plan to practice before you even go, like I said before. And oftentimes these organizations, they can recommend or they even themselves will provide liability insurance options tailored to mental health professionals.

[00:11:36] It really depends on the country. Some countries have no regulations around providing any kind of mental health services at all, so a lot of people just call themselves therapists in some countries, and they're able to see their clients, and they don't really worry about You know, licensure regulations and liability and being sued and that sort of thing because there's no license to begin with.

[00:11:57] So in some countries, you may not even have to worry about it. That's at your own risk, of course, but just something to consider and to take into account. And then you can look for insurance providers based in the country you're targeting. They ty- they typically will offer professional indemnity insurance, which covers liability for providing therapy services.

[00:12:17] So you can look into that or even a business insurance that covers liability. Look into something like that. You can really, like, go down the Google rabbit hole or as I like to, ChatGPT now has an amazing search engine that will conglomerate all that information, give you resources, and even give you who to contact if you need help.

[00:12:35] I find that it's a lot better than trying to use Google to find some of this stuff. It's getting very accurate and gives great guidance around this stuff You can explore other international insurance options. So there's something called global insurance providers, companies like Clements Worldwide and Allianz, with a Z, offers professional liability insurance for individuals practicing across multiple countries.

[00:13:00] And I, I haven't researched this myself, but I've been told this, that some international professional organizations like the International Therapist Directory or the European Association for Psychotherapy provide access to liability insurance as a membership benefit. So, these are directories that have membership benefits around that.

[00:13:19] Again, I've never researched that personally, but somebody did tell me that. And then of course, as I was saying before, you wanna make sure you're complying with local laws and requirements, so licensing and registration. Many countries require you to register or obtain temporary licensing to practice legally or even remotely, so ensure that you're meeting these requirements before you're seeking insurance.

[00:13:39] If you're gonna get international insurance, there's going to be caveats or places in the policy that you need to pay attention to, to make sure that you're being compliant and that your insurance is actually gonna cover you if there is some sort of suit brought against you in, in a different country.

[00:13:56] While you're doing all this, you've gotta take into account and pay attention to what does your liability insurance say around ensuring that your telehealth tools comply with local laws, like in the United States it's HIPAA, in Europe it's the GDPR, in Canada it's the PIPEDA, or in other countries there might be other ones that I'm not remembering right now, but those are the main ones, HIPAA, GDPR, PIPEDA.

[00:14:21] If you're in a different country and using liability insurance that's international and following rules like in New Zealand, you need to check out what the privacy laws and rules are around that to make sure you're complying and using tools and software that meet those requirements or, you know, your insurance might be null and void if somebody tries to bring a suit against you.

[00:14:40] So these are just a lot of things to think about when you're trying to practice with a portable practice or moving around a lot or just seeing clients that are sort of outside of the box and not back in your state of licensure for United States therapists Just some other thoughts around that. If you are trying to secure local liability insurance and it proves challenging for you, think it through and maybe consider focusing on expat clients.

[00:15:05] Provide therapy maybe to individuals from your home country, like back in the United States. I tell people all this time, you don't have to complicate it that much. CPH & Associates is, is fine as long as you're following your licensure laws. It's okay just to not have to, like, see clients. Maybe you decide you wanna live in Belgium.

[00:15:22] You don't have to see clients in Belgium because you can do telehealth back in your state of licensure and it's fine, and your liability insurance is probably gonna cover you if you use one of the major ones that are okay with you being located anywhere. Another thing you can do, I hear people talking about this in the Traveling Therapists Facebook group, there are international counseling, like, group conglomerates that offer services around the world.

[00:15:45] You can reach out to them, you can become an employee for them. They will normally have some sort of like huge umbrella liability insurance policy that will protect you that way if you're not feeling comfortable doing it on your own. So that's something else to think about. This is for, this is obviously for the traveling therapists that wanna be international, maybe not feel comfortable, but wanna work un- under the umbrella of an organization that's gonna protect you that way Another thing you can do always is legal protections.

[00:16:12] Consult with an international attorney to draft agreements that limit your liability in jurisdictions without coverage. If you've, if you're finding you're in a country, you wanna see clients in that country, and you can't find any sort of liability, meet with a lawyer, have him draft up some protections for you, have the client sign it just in case.

[00:16:33] It doesn't hurt to just protect yourself that way. Other things you might wanna consider to protect yourself is emergency protocols, so have clear plans for handling a crisis, including referrals to local resources. So, if you are, you know, decide you're gonna get licensed in 15 states in the United States and you're gonna live, you know, over in Australia somewhere, you need to know what the local resources are to protect yourself.

[00:16:57] You don't want a client who all of a sudden is suicidal on a telehealth call in another country, and you have no idea how to get them help. That's opening yourself up for liability, so you need to make sure that you research that stuff and have a ton of good information about that. There's a Wikipedia page, I can't think of the actual web address here, but if you type in like Wikipedia 911 in all countries, there's this huge list of emergency phone numbers in almost every single country, a way to like reach out in case of an emergency.

[00:17:29] So familiarize yourself with that, local resources, how to get help if your client's in trouble and you're having a telehealth session. Finally, make sure you document everything. Keep detailed records of all your communications with your clients, with your licensing board, with your liability insurance.

[00:17:47] Keep it all in one place in case you ever need to pull up on something and say, "Yeah. Well, I talked to this lawyer. This lawyer said I could do this, this, and this. Here's how he told me to write my consents. Here's the signature where my client signed the consent. You know, here's the licensing law in this country.

[00:18:03] Here's what my liability insurance says." You wanna be able to just put your finger on that stuff and have it with you digitally stored somewhere in case anything comes up and you need to protect yourself. So, make sure you do that. Stay flexible. Consider offering non-clinical services. Coaching really helps take away a lot of this liability if you don't wanna worry about licensing rules and regulations and liability insurance and all of that, you can always do coaching.

[00:18:31] I'm a coach. I help people become coaches. I have 15 income streams. I only see a few clients these days, and the more that the insurance companies and all of these places start to kinda clamp down on where we can practice, like most of you probably know, Blue Cross Blue Shield is really cracking on down cracking down on where the clinician can be located during the session.

[00:18:52] SimplePractice, a couple other EHRs have these, and, and Alma, you know, I love Alma. I love them so much, but they're starting to have regulations around where the clinician can be located at the time of service because Blue Cross Blue Shield is dictating this. So- You've gotta be really careful, and if it all starts to seem just, like, too overwhelming, consider coaching.

[00:19:12] You, you, as a therapist, have tons of skillsets, and you could probably be an awesome coach if you wanted to be, if you wanted to not worry about this stuff. So, reach out to me if you need help with setting up your coaching business. I have six-week packages where I can walk you through the whole thing, how I set it up, how I manage all of that stuff.

[00:19:28] So it's totally doable if this is seeming too overwhelming. And then the last little tip is networking. Engage with other internationally practicing therapists for recommendations and advice. So, the Traveling Therapist group is great for that. We've got-- I think we've got, like, 20 or 30 chat threads for different countries.

[00:19:47] You can come over there and just talk to people that are already living in these other countries. Ask them, "How are you doing this?" And there's a wealth of knowledge over there to, to help you, to walk you through it. There's also expat groups out there that you can join for each country to get more information around that.

[00:20:03] And the Portable Practice Method, my course, has got all of this in, like I said, excruciating detail with a ton more resources than I've even talked about today. But I just wanted to touch on this literally because it comes up almost every day in some form or fashion in the Traveling Therapists Facebook Group, so I thought I would record this.

[00:20:23] I can share this episode now when I have this question come up in the group. And of course, if you're listening to this and you have resources, please reach out to me. I love to add resources to the show notes of these episodes, just so I can point people back to them really quickly, say, "Look, here's all the resources for this stuff," or, "Here is an international liability insurance that people in Europe are using.

[00:20:45] Use this. Reach out to them. Get liability insurance." So, there's tons of ways to do this. Let me know if you have questions, and thanks for listening 

Building an International Therapy Practice with Lucy Orton

Time zones, licensure rules, and figuring out whether the work you trained for is still the work you want to do, building an international therapy practice comes with challenges that don't show up in the highlight reel. In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, I'm replaying one of our most popular conversations while I take a recording break to travel through Switzerland and Italy.

I sit down with Lucy Orton, a therapist and corporate coach based in Southeast Asia who sees clients across the UK and the US. She walks me through how she built a global practice around her family's life, how her advertising and marketing background opened an unexpected door into corporate coaching, and why she's shifting toward couples intensives instead of a packed weekly caseload.

In This Episode, We Explore…

• How Lucy built a global practice around her family's life across time zones and licensure differences.
• The unexpected door her advertising and marketing background opened into corporate coaching.
• What an executive roundtable actually is and why it still brings in repeat business years later.
• Why she's shifting toward couples intensives instead of a full caseload of individual sessions.
• The mindset shift that stopped her from undercharging as she moved from coaching into therapy.

Connect with Lucy Orton:
Website - https://www.couplesawaken.com/ | https://www.lucyorton.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/lucyortontherapy
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucyorton/

Connect with me:

Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab

Subscribe to the Podcast:

Apple iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcast | Stitcher | Amazon | Castbox

______________________________

Sponsored by Berries:  Say goodbye to the burden of mental health notes with automated note and treatment plan creation! https://heyberries.com/therapists

Sponsored by Alma: Managing a private practice can be challenging. There are obstacles at every turn — from navigating the credentialing process, to managing finances, to finding new clients. That’s where Alma can help. Alma is on a mission to simplify access to mental health care by focusing first and foremost on supporting clinicians. https://helloalma.com/kym

______________________________

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Kym: Hey, everybody. It's Kim again. Still on a little recording break, still pulling favorites out of the archives for you. If you didn't listen last week, I'm in Switzerland. I'm taking complete time off. I'm modeling what I talk about on The Traveling Therapist podcast. I've got multiple income streams.

[00:00:18] I've got plenty of space and time to be able to just take essentially a month off and not have to work at all. So, I'm putting out some of our favorite episodes here for you all to be able to listen to while I'm traveling through Switzerland and Italy for the next month or so So this week's episode answers something I get asked about constantly, really.

[00:00:40] What does it actually look like to run a therapy practice across countries? Not the fantasy version, the real one with time zones and licensure rules, and the question of whether you can-- if the work you're trained for is even the work you want to be doing anymore. So Lucy Orton, this is one of our most popular episodes, is a therapist and a corporate coach living in Southeast Asia, seeing clients in both the UK and the US.

[00:01:06] In this episode, she walks through how she built a global practice around her family's life, how her advertising and marketing background opened up a door into corporate coaching, and why she moved towards couples intensives instead of a full caseload of weekly hours. The corporate coaching piece is the part most people miss, and it's the part I would rewind if I were you. So here's Lucy

[00:01:29] Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist podcast. We have a super interesting guest today. She has got quite the story. I can't wait to just dive in and talk about how she's making all this work.

[00:01:41] Lucy Orton, thank you so much for being here today. Can you please tell us how you went from being just your traditional therapist to a traveling therapist?

[00:01:51] Lucy: Absolutely. And thank you so much for having me, Kim. I'm really excited to be here. I'm Lucy Orton, and I am a therapist and also a corporate coach, and I don't really think I've ever been a traditional therapist. I think I've always been a little bit unusual. Um, I kind of began in positive psychology coaching, and then I back engineered myself into counseling, partly when I discovered IFS, Internal Family Systems.

[00:02:16] And so I really shifted from that world of coaching to the world of therapy. And then as a sort of byline of that, I work with organizations doing kind of corporate coaching packages fed in, you know, with all of the kind of content that I do in my private practice. So those are my two parts of my business, private practice and corporate work.

[00:02:36] And then in terms of, kind of the non-traditional way that I work locationally, I'm really lucky to be based in Southeast Asia. So that was kind of what spurred, yeah, it's like spurred me into thinking more broadly, I think. I feel, I find it really inspiring being out of my home country. Yeah, so that's,

[00:02:51] Kym: Y- yeah. That's amazing. So everyone can hear your accent, so where are you from originally? And then we were talking before we hit record. It, it's kind of a twisted sort of like licensure and coaching in different countries and all of that stuff. can we talk about some of that, just how, like, it all works and where you're from originally and where your, licensure is based versus your coaching business and all of that?

[00:03:11] 'Cause I think people listen to this podcast, especially maybe from the UK or wherever, it... They're like, "How do I make this work and still be international?" So I love having perspectives of people that aren't from the United States, you

[00:03:23] Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. And that's, yeah, partly why I reached out to you, Kim, because I thought, oh, it'd be nice to have a different-- I feel like I have a slightly different perspective. But I also feel really aligned with you guys in the US, you know, 'cause I really love to learn from you. I think you're further ahead in terms of a lot of the money mindset for therapists, well, in, in some spheres.

[00:03:39] But yeah, so I'm, I'm British and you know, lived in Southeast Asia for the past four years. Previously have also lived in California, so have a hu- huge love of California and, and San Francisco particularly. And I did my coach training when I was in the UK, and then when I was in Southeast Asia, I did a lot of my therapy training via Australia.

[00:04:01] So I'm currently registered as an Australian counselor and I've had a lot of training with IFS, uh, the IFS Institute, Brainspotting International, and now Relational Life Therapy. So I'm very kind of international slash US leaning in my trainings, my modalities, my kind of passion for like all of that amazing CPD that comes out of, of the US.

[00:04:24] and then I have this brilliant ability to work globally because we're not as restricted. We- we're not restricted. So when I first moved to Asia, I was working predominantly with UK clients 'cause that was kind of where I came from. And now I work a lot with US clients, especially for my couples work, because it's your evening is my morning, which is when my kids are in school and, you know, I have room and also I can meet couples where they're at in the evenings you know, whether they're on the West Coast, the East Coast, or in the middle.

[00:04:51] So that's been a really lovely shift actually. When I first came to Asia, I was like, how am I going to like fit everyone in and not be working when my kids are home, you know, and be on my own during the day not working? And I think that's where that creativity of spirit came in and, and thinking about, you know, the kind of work I wanna do. And yeah. So, um, I think that answers your question.

[00:05:11] Kym: yeah, yeah, no, I, I just, it's just so casual. I just like to hear what you're saying really. There's no, you

[00:05:17] Lucy: Yeah, no right answer.

[00:05:19] Kym: I love that. It's like we've got kids, and we're in this time zone. How can I, like, adjust to the world globally, make it work so I can have the schedule that I wanna have, and be able to still, like, live my life, you know?

[00:05:31] I think that, that's amazing. So being creative and figuring out, "Oh, okay, I love couples work. Most couples work during the day in the United States, and they need evening appointments, so why don't I branch out and do it over there?" I think that's brilliant really. Yeah

[00:05:46] Lucy: Yeah, and I think it's also like you give yourself permission. I think when you leave the sort of the rat race or you leave your place of origin and, you know, we're very, very privileged and fortunate to have this opportunity. I know it's not the same for everyone globally, but for us it was an, this fantastic opportunity.

[00:06:02] It widens your perspective and it also gives you this permission to be a bit more brave. And I know that when I first came out here, I feel like I have changed a lot. I've really challenged my thinking because I was thinking, "How can I ask my clients to do a 6:00 AM, you know, session? They're not gonna wanna do that."

[00:06:17] And now I look at it like, well, my people will want to meet me when, you know, where I'm at. So I think actually saw a post on, on a Facebook group this week where someone was saying, "Oh, I'm really worried, how am I gonna get people in my state to see me at 7:00 AM?" And I was like, "The, your people are there and they will, there are people that will love that approach," just as there are people in the, in the US who really value being able to do an evening session.

[00:06:40] No one cares where you are or you know who they're talking to. Well, they do care who they're talking to, but you know what I mean. They don't, they don't mind what ac- what accent you've got or anything like that. So yeah, I just think it kind of, it's that permission piece as well of like, I can make this work for me and my

[00:06:54] Kym: love that. Yeah, yeah. And, and, you know, that idea of build it, they will come kind of thing. You know? If, if you set your schedule, the people that fit that schedule will actually come to you during those times, you know?

[00:07:07] Lucy: And in a way, I think it just gives you a bit of a more intentional outlook on like, you know, that's why I think I've made a lot of the, the business decisions that I've made, because I do come from a place of what fits with how I want to live. Like, I adore the work that I do, and I adore my life even more.

[00:07:25] Kym: Yes, of

[00:07:26] Lucy: I, you know, that's, that's the structure and I feel very lucky to be kind of working within that structure of in- adoring my work and adoring my life. But I know the hierarchy and I think, you know, if we all kind of trust that bit, that's really, really helpful.

[00:07:39] Kym: That's amazing. Yeah. So y- you had mentioned, I don't know if we already said it in here, but I know when we were talking, like corporate, corporate work, organizational work, that sort of thing. Could you talk about that some? 'Cause people ask me that a lot, like, you know, my coaching clients are like, "How do, how do I get into, like, that type of work?

[00:07:56] Get into corporations, organizations where..." Especially Silicon Valley, that type of thing, where it probably you can make more money, I would assume. You can charge more do less work for more money, you know, that kind of thing. So I'd love if we could just, like, touch on that. Like, how did you even get into it?

[00:08:12] It sounds like you were in San Francisco, maybe that gave you an introduction. But I'd love to hear, like, what that story was about.

[00:08:20] Lucy: Yeah. I mean, the corporate work's am- amazing. And how it kind of started for me was there's an incredible British coach called Jessica Lorimer, who I would highly recommend. She has a podcast called "Selling to Corporates." You should get her on. I mean, she doesn't travel, but she would be very interesting to your audience.

[00:08:35] I can introduce you. She's amazing.

[00:08:37] Kym: that. I'd love that

[00:08:38] Lucy: and yeah, I went to a few talks with her related to-- Like, it just, she just got put in front of me, you know, another audience I was in, another s- you know, spark of inspiration. She's incredible. And she teaches all sorts of people, consultants, people that might work in construction, people that work in gender pay equality, some therapists, but not, I would say not enough therapists, you know, know about her work.

[00:09:00] But lots of wellbeing people. And she has a really great structured program, which I was in, called the C-Suite. It taught me how to, how to outreach. So it's a lot of cold outreach, but also doing things like running executive roundtables and then creating proposals, which I love. Turns out I love writing a proposal.

[00:09:17] And then I also had a really great sort of leg up, which was unique to me, which is I worked in advertising and marketing for five years before I changed direction in my 20s. And so I have some really great contacts in San Francisco. I have contacts in Australia. I have contacts within different organizations within that niche.

[00:09:35] And similarly to therapy, what Jessica really suggests is that you that you niche into an industry. You don't just kind of go out being very, very broad, although like with our websites, you can still catch people. But yeah, her model is, is brilliant.

[00:09:50] And, one of the things that I did was shifted my attention to this part of the world So I, I leveraged my network and I created an executive roundtable, and then I wrote a white paper, and this was all kind of following a lot of Jessica's

[00:10:02] uh, 

[00:10:02] Kym: Wow.

[00:10:03] Lucy: And I

[00:10:04] Kym: tell me, can I interrupt you? What is an executive roundtable? 'Cause I don't even know.

[00:10:07] Lucy: Yeah, 

[00:10:08] Kym: I'm like, "Wait, what? What is that?"

[00:10:10] Lucy: I didn't know before I created one. So, what I did was I had a subject which was about imposter syndrome in creative industries, and I reached out to, I think I found like an awards, a good, really kind of solid awards scheme in Australia, and I reached out to the top 20 or 30 women and said, "I'm doing this imposter syndrome in women in creative industries."

[00:10:32] It was women-focused, that one. "Would you be interested in short interview and then joining completely free this roundtable with your peers?" I was very lucky 'cause I had a friend who worked at Facebook at the time in Sydney, and so I leveraged her a little bit and said, "She's gonna be there," so they were all very keen to come.

[00:10:48] I think I had about 15 people, which was too many.

[00:10:50] Kym: Yeah.

[00:10:51] Lucy: and then I, I I facilitated a group of CEOs and heads of people, and we had this discussion around imposter syndrome in their industry specifically, some of the things that were coming up, some of the issues with women. And I'm not joking to say, that was four years ago, I still get repeat business from those clients because they got to see me in action.

[00:11:12] We got, you know, they got to see me facilitate. I, I-- and I ended up doing for example, I w- did a series of lunch and learns for one of them. I did a ton of coaching for another of those CEOs. And the third one I'm thinking of off the top of my head I've just run my third year of a return to work mother, mothers and fathers support program using kind of mindset, a lot of the things we know in the th- from the therapy room in that context.

[00:11:36] So yeah. Does that summarize? That is quite complicated.

[00:11:39] Kym: it. It's really cool though. So it's like a, it's like a free web- it's like almost like a free webinar lead magnet kind of thing. And then it just, when you do so great with that, people just love the help and the, the offer and they wanna work with you and that sort of thing,

[00:11:54] Lucy: And I wrote

[00:11:54] Kym: little more fancy.

[00:11:56] Lucy: Yeah, it's a little more fancy. I wrote a white paper at the end, which was, you know, kind of short, short, you know, I don't know, 20 pages report, something like that. Doesn't sound very short, but you know, like with pictures. Maybe it was not that long. And then I had that to kind of promise them, so they got that at the end.

[00:12:07] They got something out of it. They also got to network. So it was like a kind of webinar, but much smaller audience. But then it's about building and honing those individual relationships. And now, you know, they're always in my kind of black book, those people, which is really awesome. And yeah, so that's, that's kind of one of the areas that was really successful for me, and I really should do another one.

[00:12:26] I'm

[00:12:27] Kym: Yeah, I love it

[00:12:28] Lucy: actually, Kim, are you be interested in this? I, I need to speak to that friend who's at Facebook, which- who was at Facebook. She's now working for a company called Springboards AI, which is like brand strategy and AI. And I was wondering about I'm going to contact her and suggest, talk to her about burnout and AI and agency life in that, that industry and see if there's a, a good topic for another exec roundtable, 'cause I'm kinda keen to do one again.

[00:12:51] It feels like time.

[00:12:52] Kym: Yeah. And that, what a timely topic. I mean, it is, I mean, AI's everything.

[00:12:58] Lucy: Yeah. But m- my kind of, my hypothesis, and I need to check with my friend, is knowing that industry is very, very ruthless and it's very hard, you know, hardcore is, are people just working even harder and being expected to do even more with AI? This is my question and my kind of

[00:13:14] Kym: a good question. Oh my gosh, yeah. Oh my gosh. We- I should have you on my other new podcast where we're talking about a lot of AI stuff.

[00:13:22] Lucy: Oh, definitely. Yeah, hit me up.

[00:13:24] Kym: Yeah, I will, because yeah, that, that's a super interesting question. And yes, I mean, it's like you've gotta be even better now, yeah, in

[00:13:31] Lucy: I know. I feel like this world is so messy that like when we should be going to like a two-day week, suddenly we'll have to do more and like, you know, our, our business objectives will suddenly... I, I don't know 'cause I'm not in corporate anymore, but I imagine that, that people are looking at workflow and thinking, "Well, you used to have to do 10 reports a, a year, but now you can do 700."

[00:13:50] Kym: Yeah 

[00:13:50] Lucy: so

[00:13:51] Kym: can't you do 700? You know, why can't you, why, why can't you see 500 clients? Yeah, exactly. Oh my gosh, that is such a good point. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So gosh, there's just so much I wanna ask you about, like, 'cause you've got family life, international work, your husband. You know, I guess you're in that area, right?

[00:14:08] 'Cause your husband is working as a teacher, right?

[00:14:11] Lucy: Yep.

[00:14:12] Kym: so you know, I guess you've had to adapt to life in Southeast Asia and all of that, and it's... I'm sure it's wonderful. I mean, anytime I hear anybody in Southeast Asia they're like, "I love it here." So yeah, I mean, what's life like, and what's like time zone management like?

[00:14:27] 'Cause I'm hearing you, right? I'm like, okay, UK, Australia, you've got people in California. Like, how do you even make sense of that?

[00:14:34] Lucy: Yeah. That it-- Well, do you know what? Time zone maths is my least favorite thing. I hate it, and yet I have to, you know, I'm so... I know, I'm so manual with it. Like, I have to ch- One day, one year, I was doing some IFS training in, on the East Coast, and in the e- my husband and I were both doing it, 'cause he's also very interested in mental health with his

[00:14:52] Kym: Okay. Oh,

[00:14:53] Lucy: And he was doing a m- a morning training, and I was doing an evening one, and we could not work out for the life of us who was gonna have to get up earlier and go to bed later. We had to wait. We waited until the day, and then we were like, "Okay, I lost. You won. I'm getting up earlier. You're getting to go to bed earlier."

[00:15:09] It was crazy because we couldn't figure out that future thing. Like, I- maybe there w- there wasn't as much AI then. It was a couple, about four years ago. But yeah. No, sorry. So you're in terms of living here, like, it, yeah, I mean, I sometimes joke and say it feels like life on easy mode because there's so many beautiful things about being here and feel so incredibly lucky.

[00:15:29] I mean, if there are always challenges, we moved in COVID with three l- with three quite young kids. Ele- they were at the time 11 whilst we were in a quarantine hotel for 15 nights, which was actually amazing, but seemed like it was gonna be awful. Yeah, it was... We weirdly look back on it now with very tinted spectacles 'cause it was just being holed up together.

[00:15:48] Yeah, so w- they were 11, 8 and 4 when we came out here. So it's been a big adjustment for them, but they've thrived through it. And that's been amazing. And then just the travel opportunities, like we are so well-placed for, you know, incredible adventures. We've been to Cambodia, Laos, we've been to Singapore, Japan twice, which is like a dream come true for me.

[00:16:09] Kym: Oh. Oh, wow. I hear that over and over about Japan. Yeah

[00:16:15] Lucy: Oh, it's amazing. I'm very-- It's like my sort of soul place. Just feels something different when I go there. Really, really love it. So yeah. Yeah. So it's been incredible and I think like, you know, it, it's a very easy lifestyle. It kind of reminds me of a bit of a like New York lifestyle in that you can get what you need when you need it.

[00:16:33] There's always a solution, except the solution is a lot cheaper. So, you know, you know, life, y- you kind of... I always say like if you make a mistake here, you're not-- there's gonna be a solution and it's gonna cost you about, you know, 20 bucks equivalent, right? Whereas if you make a mistake in London, you know, and your car gets towed, you're looking at 600 pounds and like a really stressful day.

[00:16:54] I say that from experience. We parked in the wrong place at, at, at this incredible huge market and thought, "Oh my God, our car's surely been impounded. We've completely parked in a, a wrong space." And no, they just like carefully like moved it, I don't know how, to a different spot, and then they took a photo of us with it and we thought, "Surely there's a ticket coming."

[00:17:11] No, I think they just thought it was like an amusing, you know, event with the foreigners.

[00:17:16] Kym: Yeah. Oh my gosh, that is funny. Oh my goodness. Yeah, I, I bet it's just totally amazing living over there. So what do you do with the kids? Like, are they in some international school or homeschooling, or how do you, how are you all managing that?

[00:17:30] Lucy: So my husband's job, I don't know if I-- yeah, I said he's the deputy head, and the kids go to his school 'cause it's a through school, which is pretty amazing. I mean, again, has its challenges having your dad be on the management at your school. But I mean, my, my husband is wonderful and he is very-- he is an incredible father.

[00:17:46] He's very close to his kids, so it does work really, really well. And it gives you that sense of community from the get-go, which was really appreciated, I think, for all of us. But yeah, so they do a British curriculum and they-- but yet they're at an international school, and it's a, it's an interesting world.

[00:18:01] It's like quite interconnected world and some suddenly, you know, we know people all over the place who move on or come out or, you know, connect. So it really helps you feel like you're part of that international traveling kind of community. But yeah, I mean, people here do, and lots of people in Southeast Asia do homeschool.

[00:18:18] And I think it's because the price of international school is extremely high,

[00:18:22] Kym: Is it? Oh,

[00:18:23] Lucy: yeah, these good ones. So, we're very fortunate that that's part, you know, most of it's covered by my husband's package. But yeah, we're in a very, very, very fortunate position, and I think even like four years on, my husband and I make sure that we kind of feel that gratitude 'cause I think it's very easy to, what's it called?

[00:18:40] Hedonic adaption. You know, it's very easy to just think, "Oh, well this is nice and it should always be even nicer." And actually we're like, "No, let's ground ourselves." We cannot, you know, forget how lucky we are and we have to kind of, you know, really, really bring that into our day-to-day, and it's, it's easy to do so, you know.

[00:18:56] Kym: Oh, I love that, the hedonic adaption. Can we talk about that for a second? I mean, I, that's, I, I, it, it's such an interesting concept, you know, 'cause I, I talk about that a lot. It's like Ken and I, right, we, we've gotten in this place now, if we're somewhere for too long we're, like, ready to go. We're, like, bored with it at that point, you know?

[00:19:13] 'Cause it, the hedonic adaption really, it's just like we've gotten used to this like, okay, what's the next shiny thing that we're gonna move on to, the next place that we're gonna go? So I, I just think that's an interesting concept. So you're kind of like using some therapisty techniques to be like, "Let's be grateful.

[00:19:29] Let's get grounded. Let's remember why we love this place." Like that kind of thing?

[00:19:34] Lucy: Yeah. I mean, my poor husband, he is like my guinea pig for all my therapy work, including, you know, my main focus now, which is couples work. He's got no hope. I'm like, "Terry Real says this, Relational Life Therapy says this," and he's just like, can we just, can we just talk about the, the, the

[00:19:49] Kym: The weather.

[00:19:49] Lucy: in front of us or the weather?"

[00:19:50] Yeah. But no, I mean, I think I actually, I, you know, I know it from my therapy work and I also know it from there's a guy called Andrew Hallam who wrote some books, another person you should get on here actually called "The Expat Millionaire" and "The Expat-" "The Millionaire Teacher." So it's about like taking control of your, your finances as an expat.

[00:20:07] It's, it's very kind of solid, like Dave Ramsey kind of lev- you know, it's that sort of, passive investing, like across the market. So it's very like historically sort of a good way to invest. Anyway, we're reading his book and he talks about it quite a lot as a way of kind of really encouraging you to, to not always up-level your lifestyle as you up-level your income, you know.

[00:20:29] And I think that I, you know, you talk about your hedonic adaption as as wanting to travel more, and I think, well, that feels very wholesome. That feels like a great use of it. You know, 

[00:20:38] Kym: Well, that's good. 

[00:20:39] Lucy: it's the more materialistic things that like, that's, you get yourself stuck in that sort of race to the

[00:20:44] Kym: Yeah. Oh, yes. Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, that-- We definitely have mastered the art of we need nothing.

[00:20:53] Lucy: Yeah. 

[00:20:53] Kym: Two suitcases basically, you know, and, and

[00:20:56] Lucy: That's amazing

[00:20:58] Kym: need anything, we can pretty much buy it, and we're lucky enough to be able to just buy it if we need it.

[00:21:02] We don't have to worry about having everything with us and, you know, that kinda thing. So yeah. So interesting. Gosh. Now, you know, I'm talking to you, and I'm imagining you're... I don't know if you know anything about human design, but I'm like a manifest- I'm like a generator, right? So I'm always like ideas and bouncing around, and it feels like you've got that energy too that you're like, "I'm gonna do coaching, I'm gonna do corporate this, I'm gonna do these roundtable, executive roundtables," and just like just bringing in work from all angles, whatever your passion is or whatever, like, the universe kinda brings to you.

[00:21:32] It kinda feels like you have that energy to me, you

[00:21:34] Lucy: I, I definitely do. Yeah, you've read me. I'm like a book. But yeah, I, I actually-- I was just having a conversation with my husband actually about this because the, the corporate work will always be part of me and I've got such great like ongoing relationships, so I'll always kind of hone those and keep that networking going.

[00:21:50] But I was saying to him, I think next academic year, which I think always think in academic years being a mom of three I've said, I said to him, "I think I'm gonna experiment with really focusing in," and it's that couples work piece, couples work intensives that's really like kind of lighting me up. So I-- it's funny that you said that 'cause I'm kind of gonna experiment with pulling in a bit even though I absolutely love the kind of spectrum of doing so many different things.

[00:22:15] But I'm conscious like I guess we all are of like the shiny thing syndrome and feeling like, "Oh, I want to try that," and

[00:22:21] Kym: do that. I can do that. Mm-hmm.

[00:22:23] Lucy: Yeah. So I mean, for me simplified is still like, you know, the corporate stuff and then like couples intensives with, you know, some of my ongoing individual clients.

[00:22:31] So there'll still be individual clients. But yeah, just, just kind of what I'm gonna... Yeah, just see if I can kind of have that little bit more contained structure. Having said that, I know myself, so you know, as people come to me and approach me, I think we, you've talked about this offline, but like I do get people requesting a consultation from a business perspective, from a perspective of wanting to know what it's like working in, in Asia from a perspective of wanting to know about IFS or RLT or, you know, how you create an intensive.

[00:22:58] So I'm very, very open to that. But it's not something that I'm actively out there kind of hustling for. I want to really kind of focus on my craft, I think is what, what really feels right at the

[00:23:08] Kym: I love that. I love that, yeah. So what does your intensive model look like right now? 'Cause intensives are so hot. Everybody wants to be able to, you know, do, do like three intensives in a month and then not work, and then do three intensives and not work, you know, like that kind of thing. So I'm just curious, like, how do you have it modeled?

[00:23:22] Because people love to talk about that, you

[00:23:25] Lucy: Yeah. Oh, it's such an incredible concept. So I've been doing intensives for probably about a year and a half, like kind of, intentionally. But prior to that, I really had already been doing like extended sessions as almost a matter of course, because working with IFS and brain spotting and also working with RLT and couples, that extended period of time is gold dust to, you know, the, the impact.

[00:23:52] And to, to be honest, when I do a 50-minute session, or I usually for me it's 60-minute session with a client, I almost feel like I'm giving them a raw deal now. I'm like,

[00:24:00] Kym: I know. Yeah

[00:24:02] Lucy: if you could just extend, and I've had a couple of people where they can't, so, you know, I, I go with it. But for me, that intensive model is so beautiful.

[00:24:09] I'm doing an intensive tomorrow and we'll do three hours tomorrow, three hours Monday, three hours Tuesday. And I, I've, I've done like a pre-session with her. I know what her system is, so this is like an individual person doing IFS and I just know so much will unfold because with IFS, those protectors, you know, the protector parts, if you know the model they are tight and they really want to look after us.

[00:24:32] And so they sometimes are slow to trust and 50 minutes or 60 minutes is not enough for them to really kind of really believe your, your-- you have good intent for them. Whereas in the intensive model, it's incredible. Even like we might do an hour and a half or two hours of, of inside work, we might break for a toilet break and then go back in and something's already shifted because they'll-- you're back and they're like, the part is like, "Oh, this, this person I wasn't sure of, this leader of my system allegedly has come back, has followed through on what they promised and I'm open to it now."

[00:25:04] And it is, it's am- amazing to kind of see it un- unfold like that. And then with couples work, it's like, to me there's so much value in A, spending a longer period of time to really like make that investment in the work to speed it up so you're not stuck in, in stasis for too long. And also with the RLT model, which is why I love it so much with my IFS and brain spotting, the trauma component means that again, you're back in that place where you need time, especially if you're working with two people's trauma and you're working with, you know, two sets of goals and two sets of ways of looking at the relationship.

[00:25:38] It becomes even more important to have that intensive time whenever possible. I mean, it's not always possible for every couple or every client but I do try and sell it in as the best practice and I, I mean that with all my heart. You know, it's not, not a difficult thing to persuade people of when it feels so so right.

[00:25:56] Kym: Yeah, absolutely. Oh, I just, I love that so much. So I mean, we talked about so much before we even hit record. Another thing you said, which is so entrepreneurial and I love it, was this little, you're branching out into Insight Timer and doing some, some recordings and that sort of thing. Can we just talk about that?

[00:26:13] 'Cause I think people would be really interested to hear about that and

[00:26:17] Lucy: Yeah.

[00:26:17] Kym: how you're doing that. Mm-hmm

[00:26:19] Lucy: was weird because I, for years-- It's one of those things where I don't feel very entrepreneurial about it. I feel a bit like on the back foot, like, "Why didn't I think of this before?" But I have for years sort of sent people to InsightTimer without massively exploring it myself, like little bits and pieces.

[00:26:33] But I would kind of let set them off on homework like, "Yeah, yeah, you can search for IFS and you can find things." And then sometimes they would ask me for something specific, so I would create a meditation for them specifically and just send it as a voice note, and then like have it on my file for future use.

[00:26:47] And then I suddenly put two and two together and thought, "Why am I not uploading these?" So at the moment I've three tracks and one arou- about to hopefully get approved, and I'm planning to just keep going with that, partly because it's a great little library for me. Yeah. It also feels like because of my corporate work being through outreach and because of my website and SEO being my main way of getting clients, I don't really do social media, which is fine by me.

[00:27:11] It's great. And I don't have to do ton of content, so it does feel as well like a bit of giving back. You know, like maybe I'll get some financial recompense for it, but I'll definitely get like a branding boost and I'll also get like, you know, th- that feeling of like, you know, if someone can't work with me because of fee prices, I can send them to my InsightTimer and say, "Go and have a look.

[00:27:28] I've got, you know, by that point, maybe 20 or 30 meditations. You're really welcome to, you know, use those." So it feels like a really nice kind of option.

[00:27:37] Kym: Yeah, no, that's so smart. Yeah, I, I didn't know that just, not, not to say just, not to minimize it, just anybody, I didn't know that, like, therapists or whatever could just, like, go on there and

[00:27:48] Lucy: Neither did I. Like, I, I didn't really-- And it's, it's a very easy process. So you go on, you log- you register you say you're a therapist rather than a meditation teacher, so they ask for that distinction. I think you can also be a yoga teacher. They ask you to upload your qualifications, so there's a nice you know, a sense check there.

[00:28:05] And if you're gonna talk about something, so obviously mine are like IFS actually at the moment. If you're gonna talk about something, have you got specific expertise in, in that model or in that subject? So again, you submit a bit of evidence, and then each track takes about a week to be approved.

[00:28:18] So it does really feel like there's a human that's like checking through, making sure quality control is there. You can't promote so it's only your name. But you know, we all know that that's, that's enough because, you know, if I, if I see Kim Go- Kim Tolston, I can quickly look you up and find you, you know?

[00:28:35] So it's still great.

[00:28:36] Kym: is this person? Yeah.

[00:28:38] Lucy: I wanna hear this person that's whispering in my ear at bedtime or whatever. But yeah, no, it's, it's been a really nice kind of little sideline and I'm, I'm hoping to keep building on that and just kind of looking at it as a little long-term project.

[00:28:49] Kym: That's amazing. I love that so much. I I've got something dinging on my computer. I don't know what it is. I don't know if you can hear it, but, Oh, you can't hear it. Okay, good.

[00:28:59] Lucy: No, I could hear a little bit of, I could hear a little bit of background noise earlier. Like, it sounded like a tap, a tap running.

[00:29:05] Kym: Yes, yes. Yeah.

[00:29:07] Lucy: Right. That I could hear. You'll probably be able to tune that out.

[00:29:11] Kym: Yeah, yeah, I hope she does. That's my boyfriend, decides to make coffee right in the middle of podcast

[00:29:16] Lucy: Perfect. That

[00:29:19] Kym: But anyway...

[00:29:20] Lucy: family do.

[00:29:21] Kym: Yeah, exactly. It's like, I don't know, we're in this little room together, what can you do? But so anyway, gosh, just a fascinating life that you're living. It's so, so incredible for you to share everything and how you're making it work.

[00:29:32] It's just... I just love, like, the, the spirit of just, like, I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna do this, and now I'm gonna hone in on this. And it just, like, really echoes what I feel like this podcast is all about. It's just, like, being entrepreneurial, following your passions, making it work for your life and how you wanna live it.

[00:29:49] And, you know, and you're doing that, which is just amazing. Yeah.

[00:29:53] Lucy: it feels really good. And, you know, another thing that's probably worth saying is I'm really-- I think coming from the coaching world, moving into therapy, I had a different perspective on premium fees. I did, I did LIM with Tiffany McClain

[00:30:06] Kym: Oh,

[00:30:06] yeah I sort of caught the, the, the virus of worrying about charging when I segued out of coaching and I was, you know, I was reducing my fees and I was like, "Hang on a minute.

[00:30:16] Lucy: What am I doing? I've skilled up and I'm reducing my fees." So that, that's something that's really kind of important to me. And as a kind of connected to that as well is giving myself enough time off. And that's another thing, you know, traveling and living abroad gives us those options. You know, having massage in the afternoon, going for a swim, and not feeling like you have to constantly be hustling and working, you know, 30 hours a week.

[00:30:41] Certainly not what I want to do and, and I'm kind of really passionate about that. That's something else that I do work with

[00:30:46] Kym: I love that. I love that. So how do you work out your fees? I mean, I've heard of Tiffany McLean's program. H- how, d- do you basically say, "This is how much time I want off. This is, you know,

[00:30:57] Lucy: Yeah, she

[00:30:58] Kym: this is how much I'd have to charge an hour," like that kind of thing? And, and then you just, like, "I'm doing it," and then you just wait for the people to come that can pay that, that rate, I guess, right?

[00:31:07] Lucy: absolutely. I kind of incrementally increased from this kind of w- place where I'd lowered my fees and was like, "Why am I doing this?" And also, one of the-- there's a couple of things that came in. Because I love my corporate work and it is extremely well-paid when it comes in, although it's a slow process to get fewer jobs in, if you see what I mean.

[00:31:24] So it might take two years of conversation with someone at a tech company in Silicon Valley, and then they bring you in and they pay you $5,000, you know, like for an, an hour session. So it kind of-- the, the numbers are big, but the run-up is often, although Jessica Lorimer would say it depends what you do, but the run-up is a, a longer, longer thing.

[00:31:43] So but when I was looking at that and then looking at the fact that I really wanted to serve people in a one-to-one private practice way, I thought I have to have these fees be more commensurate. Like, they're not gonna be the same, so that it's not the same model. But I don't wanna feel resentful charging, you know, equivalent of like $120 an hour.

[00:32:01] Like, it just wasn't gonna work for me. So that really guided me. I did Tiffany's program. She has an amazing calculator, which I used. But almost as soon as I signed up for her program, it kind of-- that was the, that was what I needed to go, "Okay, I give myself permission, actually." And then I did a lot of her mi- mindset work and stuff.

[00:32:17] But yeah, it's, it, it's really important to me, I think as well in terms of sustainability. So I really want to keep practicing for a very long time, and I don't want to do 40 hours a week. And so I really kind of am guided by if I get paid a good rate now, I'm not gonna burn out. I'm gonna make a good income and a good retirement fund for my family and college ch- college funds for my children.

[00:32:41] And I'm not going to be resentful and, and suddenly have to stop in six years, you know? So I'm really feel like it's, I'm in it for the long term. And to be in it for the long term we have to think strategically. We have to think in a slightly different way than our field encourages t- us to. I mean, and I come from the UK and I'm also aligned with Australia, and the fees there are very, very low.

[00:33:03] And for me, like I just wouldn't want to do it if it was at that rate. It wouldn't feel like I was being valued for my skills, my experience. And you can give back in other ways, whether that's charity like, you know, we, we support local charities in Asia, or whether that's looking after like, rescued kittens.

[00:33:19] You know, there's other ways to give back, but for me in my work, that's about, you know, that's about the service and the field that I love, and it's about being paid for it really, you know, decently.

[00:33:29] Kym: Yeah. Yeah. And, and taking care of yourself. Yeah, totally. Amazing. Thank you so much. So how do people find you? How do people work with you? They... Cor- corporate people are listening or couples or, or, you know, therapists that wanna talk to you about Southeast Asia and, and your, your help around that, how do they find you and

[00:33:47] Lucy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm quite rubbish on social media, so the best place to find me is either my couples therapy website, which is couplesawaken.com, or my individual website, which is lucyaughton.com, and that also incorporates a, a few pages about my corporate work. So those are the two best places to find me, and then I would say the third best place is LinkedIn.

[00:34:09] So Lucy, Lucy Orton, you'll find me. I think there's not many of us that have the kind of, you know, a, a filled out profile. But yeah, I'm always delighted to connect with people. I love speaking to therapists who might want to refer for couples work, who might want a kind of very-- I, I do the RLT approach, which is very, it's good for couples on the brink, and it's good for like high impact and maybe high conflict couples. So yeah, always up for chatting with people for those kind of referrals. And yes, absolutely, if anyone wants to look at any of my work and talk to me about different perspectives f- from the therapist viewpoint, then I'm very happy to set up consultation calls a- a- and the, the corporate, you know, give more guidance about the corporate work from our field as well.

[00:34:50] Kym: Love that. And what is IRLT? I'm sitting here thinking like,

[00:34:53] Lucy: Oh, R- RLT, Relational Life Therapy. That's my British accent.

[00:34:59] Kym: Okay.

[00:35:00] Lucy: Yeah, Relational Life Therapy, which is Terry Real's incredible therapy mode. Yeah, and he's really, like, he seems to be everywhere at the moment, so I think it's really exploding. His books are incredible. His work is like very dir- it's kind of direct.

[00:35:15] And but what I love about it, it's got the direct psychoeducational piece, it's got a lot of truth telling, and it's got trauma work, so I can really bring in like both sides of, A, my personality and, you know, B, the, the modalities that I think are just so effective. So yeah, RLT. R

[00:35:30] Kym: So cool

[00:35:32] Lucy: for, for Robert or Relational Life Therapy.

[00:35:36] Kym: Gotcha. I love that. Thank you so much. Well, thanks for taking the time today. This has been super interesting, and I

[00:35:42] think it's gonna be really inspirational to a lot of people listening. Yeah

[00:35:45] Lucy: you so much, and thanks for having me 'cause I really love your podcast and I love all the work you do with AI. So yeah, let's, let's chat about that AI podcast

[00:35:53] Kym: I'd love that. Yes, I'd love that. I'd love that so much. Thank you

[00:35:57] Lucy: Thank you, Kim

How to Transform Your Money Mindset to Thrive as a Traveling Therapist with Scarlett Stanhope

You can have the license, the laptop, and a full client list, and still stay exactly where you are, because learning to transform your money mindset is the piece most traveling therapists skip until it's absolutely unavoidable. This one's a replay of one of our most-requested episodes, and it earns that spot for a reason. In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, I sit down with Scarlett Stanhope, known as the Biz Hippie, to talk about why money, not licensure or tech setup, is usually the real reason people never book the flight.

We get into the core beliefs that quietly run the show long before you ever open a bank statement, the childhood money messaging most people never think to question, and the very uncomfortable topic of charging what you're actually worth. Transforming your money mindset starts here, and if you've been waiting for the money to feel more stable before you make a move, Scarlett is going to poke at that belief a little.

In This Episode, We Explore…

• Why "not enough-ness" shows up the same way whether you're broke or financially comfortable.
• The difference between the tangible and intangible sides of healing your relationship with money.
• What Scarlett's compost pile has to do with breaking a scarcity mindset.
• The real cost of undercharging, and why overcharging can backfire just as fast.
• How Scarlett's pricing "secret sauce" helps you find the edge of your comfort zone.

Connect with Scarlett Stanhope:
Website: https://thebizhippie.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thebizhippie/
Book an Abundance Activation Session: https://thebizhippie.com/activate/

Connect with me:

Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab

Subscribe to the Podcast:

Apple iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcast | Stitcher | Amazon | Castbox

______________________________

Sponsored by Berries:  Say goodbye to the burden of mental health notes with automated note and treatment plan creation! https://heyberries.com/therapists

Sponsored by Alma: Managing a private practice can be challenging. There are obstacles at every turn — from navigating the credentialing process, to managing finances, to finding new clients. That’s where Alma can help. Alma is on a mission to simplify access to mental health care by focusing first and foremost on supporting clinicians. https://helloalma.com/kym

______________________________

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Kym: Hey, everybody. Kim here. I'm taking a little time off from recording new episodes this month, which honestly feels very on brand for a podcast about not being chained to your desk. So for the next few weeks, I'm re-running episodes you all keep coming back to. I'm actually headed to Switzerland with my nephew who just graduated from high school.

[00:00:26] He's 18, and he was actually gonna just go backpack through Europe, which is so cool, right? but his mom was like, "Why don't you go with your aunt for just a little bit before you just, like, go all in on Europe and backpacks, you know, at 18 years old?" So anyway, we're gonna go together over to Switzerland for a little bit, and then we're gonna go over to Italy and meet his mom there, and we're just gonna have time off.

[00:00:49] So it's gonna be about three and a half weeks essentially that I'm just not working at all. So I thought, wouldn't it be fun to bring you guys back to your most popular episodes? And this episode is one of them

[00:01:01] And this one really goes first for a good reason. Money is the thing that stops most therapists from ever booking the flight. Not their licensure, not the tech setup, not the clients, the money, or more precisely, the story that we tell ourselves about money, really. So in this conversation, I sat down with Scarlett Stanhope, also known as the Biz Hippie, a financial coach who works specifically with therapists and coaches.

[00:01:25] We got into how to shift out of the scarcity thinking, how to build financial systems that actually match the life that you wanna live, and the very uncomfortable topic of charging what you're worth. And if you guys are in the Facebook groups, you see this all the time. So fair warning, if you've been telling yourself you'll travel once the money feels more stable, Scarlett is going to poke at that belief just a little bit in this episode. So let's get into it

[00:01:59] Everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist podcast. I'm excited today. We have a guest that's not a therapist, but she really has a non-traditional life path and tons of great advice to help those of you that are just, like, getting started on this journey, trying to figure out how to do it.

[00:02:16] Kym: So Scarlett, the Biz Hippie, is here with us. Scarlett Stanhope, I'm so excited to have you, Scarlett. I wonder if you would just maybe tell us a little bit about you and kinda like what qualifies you to be on here and talking to this audience. 

[00:02:30] Scarlett: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me today, Kim. My name is Scarlett, and I am an abundance coach.

[00:02:36] I help entrepreneurs, coaches, artists, therapists change their relationship with money and learn to manage their money so that they can pursue their businesses and live their best lives following their own unique path. And I do this by combining a combination of tangible money management techniques with deep coaching and similar to therapeutic practices to- Mm-hmm

[00:03:05] change your relationship and your identity around money so that you can build the life that you want to live. 

[00:03:12] Kym: I love that so much. So before we dive into all that stuff, can we just talk about you a little bit? Because I read your bio. It's super interesting how you came to this place in your life. But also, before we, just before we hit record, you were saying that you lived on a sailboat for 60 days, which these listeners can totally relate to, and you ran your business from there.

[00:03:30] So I'd like, love to just touch on that a little bit and, and being the Biz Hippie and all of that before we dig into, like, the money mindset stuff. 

[00:03:37] Scarlett: Absolutely. I mean, I've done a ton of traveling over the past four years of my business. I love to attend retreats, and I've traveled all over the country, all over the world, just being in potent personal development, personal growth environments with other people on the same path.

[00:03:55] And at the same time, while I'm traveling and having all these adventures, also running my business. So for the f- first time recently, I had an opportunity to take all of that to the next level and really see what it was like to run my business for an extended period of time in a different environment, which was really, really cool.

[00:04:16] Kym: So I ha- I kind of want to know the details. Tell us about- Yeah ... the sailboat. Like, did, did you learn how to sail, or did you have somebody with you that knew how to sail, or ... And were you, like, out in the open water? Were you, like, docked places? Like, how does the logistics of that work? And then, of course, you need the internet, I'm sure.

[00:04:31] So I'd love to just hear how all that came together. 

[00:04:35] Scarlett: Yeah. So the story is that, I mean, I live a life where I love to say yes to all of the opportunities that the universe throws my way, which is how I got to where I am now, and the business that I'm running now, is because I make it a point to say yes to every opportunity.

[00:04:52] For a chunk of time in my business, I was also working part time at a restaurant just for some extra cash to fund my business while I was continuing to raise my, my revenue. And so one day, I was waitressing at this restaurant, and a couple with a daughter comes in and sits at my, in my section. And they're like, "Oh yeah, we're not really from this area."

[00:05:14] I was like, "Oh, what brings you to the area?" And they're like, "Oh, we are moving onto our sailboat." And so then I start chatting them up because I do have prior sailing experience. I learned how to sail boats in the Boston Harbor, uh- Oh my gosh ... in 2018. And me and my mom both learned how to sail together, and we actually found other sailboat friends shortly after that, and we helped them move onto their boat and move out of their apartment, and set sail off into their retirement land.

[00:05:44] So I had experience of helping people transition into boat life. And so I start chatting with this couple that I don't know at all, and then maintained the connection, and then the opportunity presented itself of, "Hey, do you want to come on the boat for a chunk of time?" And so I, of course, said yes to that.

[00:06:05] I was like, "Sure-" Oh my gosh ... "random stranger that I don't know. Yes, I will come be on a boat with you." And so me and my mom actually went together with the husband, because the wife and daughter were- Uh ... you know, not on the boat yet. And then I stayed. 

[00:06:20] Kym: Yeah. 

[00:06:20] Scarlett: My, my mom stayed for 10 days, and af- and then I continued to stay.

[00:06:24] She left. I continued to stay for another eight days, and then I got off the boat to do other business travel that I already had planned. I did, like, a trip to Austin, Texas, then Mexico, then Fargo, and then came back home to Boston, and then immediately after that, went back on the boat, and then stayed on the boat for another I believe it was over 50 days.

[00:06:46] So my total- 

[00:06:48] Kym: Wow ... 

[00:06:48] Scarlett: boat time was 64 days total, and I just ran my business from the boat the whole time. We were sailing down the East Coast. So initially when I started, we started in Maine. Oh my gosh. And then by the time I got off a few weeks ago just before Thanksgiving, we were down in Florida. So I did the whole East Coast.

[00:07:08] Kym: That is so cool. I've always thought that would be the coolest trip, like the, like the Intracoastal Waterway. I, I guess you came by the ocean, but the Intracoastal Waterway, how it comes, like, all the way down from... I don't even know where it starts, but I've always thought wouldn't that be so cool to just have a boat and just come all the way down under the bridges and through all the towns.

[00:07:26] That's amazing. So yeah, I g- I just have so many questions about this. I guess we don't need to make the whole episode about that, but that's, that is really amazing that they were just like, "Come on. Come with us." Like, what a, what a cool adventure. Yeah. And the fact that you were like, "You know what? I'm just gonna do it."

[00:07:43] I love that. 

[00:07:43] Scarlett: Totally. Totally. It was such an amazing experience. Yeah. And I feel like that A- a- and you know, it's important to make sure you're safe and things like that, but at the same time, one of the, the best things that I think you could ever do is just say yes to the opportunities that life throws your way, and that's something that I practice all the time.

[00:08:02] And tying this back to money is having the money and using your money strategically so that you are able to say yes to all the opportunities that life throws your way. I find that money is often the thing that holds people back from doing that, which is why this topic and the work that I, I do is so important, especially for people like us who want to live a different life and want to choose adventure and want to walk a different path.

[00:08:29] Kym: I love this topic that you kind of presented before you came on, the idea of how transforming your identity is the key to financial abundance. So I'd love to talk about that because, you know, one of my big things with The Traveling Therapist is I'm always like, "You guys, do it now." Like, don't wait. Don't wait till you're retired or you're too old to, like, get out and, and walk around and enjoy a place.

[00:08:51] Like, start now. Like, what is holding you back, you know? And I, I love this topic, so I'd love to just, like, deep dive into that, transforming your identity so you can live this life of a traveling therapist if you want to, if you're listening to this episode. 

[00:09:05] Scarlett: It really all comes down to our core thoughts and beliefs about- Mm-hmm

[00:09:11] ourselves, and then how that ties into our beliefs and our stories around money, right? Hmm. And money and ourselves are so interwoven, which is why when I do money work with my clients, it's actually such a huge personal growth and transformation journey. Nice. Because your relationship with your money is a reflection of your relationship to yourself.

[00:09:35] Because money- Love that ... is just how you choose to create your life. Whatever you're spending your money on, you are choosing it. You're prioritizing it. You're valuing it for a reason. So your deepest beliefs about yourself and about the world all show up in your relationship with money. Th- 

[00:09:53] Kym: that's really profound So what, what are some of the patterns you see with people with, with their money?

[00:10:00] I'm, I'm imagining there's maybe, like, four or five, like, major patterns. You know, I mean, I, I see people all the time. They're like, "I'm so far in debt. I've got all this credit card debt. You know, there's no way I'll be able to get out of it and actually go live this life. How can I even budget for this?"

[00:10:13] Like, so I just wonder, like, what, what do those themes look like for people, and are, are there, like, some tips for people in these different places with their money stuff? 

[00:10:21] Scarlett: Because some of the common things really come down to beliefs rooted in scarcity, lack, fear- Mm ... not enoughness. Not enoughness is really the core, which is the idea of there's not enough for me.

[00:10:38] There's not enough to go around. Or this can also be turned on yourself and, and be turned into I'm not good enough. Mm. I'm not worthy. I'm not deserving. There must be something wrong with me, or this is just the way the world is, right? There's these underlying super common scarce-based beliefs about ourselves and about the world that totally change our perspective on money.

[00:11:06] And what happens is we show up and act in a certain way based on these scarce-based beliefs, and they create our reality. We find- Mm ... ways to make it true even though scarcity and not enoughness is actually not true. And it might be hard to believe and see that if you're living in a scarce place. All you- Mm-hmm

[00:11:31] see is scarcity, 'cause that's what you're used to seeing. That's what your brain has been searching for, for possibly your whole entire life. But even just a simple example to start to shift the perspective of this is nature is abundant, right? Like, my favorite example- Love that ... is my compost pile, right?

[00:11:55] I'm a hippie. Ah. I like woo-woo. I'm into nature. Um, I'm into fresh local produce. I'm into health, right? So I love having a compost pile. So what happens is I get my produce for the whole produce season, and I put all my scraps and everything into a compost pile, and then the compost decomposes, turns into dirt, because that's what happens, and then that dirt grows and becomes future plants, right?

[00:12:24] Mm. And same with if you're a plant owner, if anyone here has ever owned a plant, and you have a healthy plant, you know what happens? Is it grows another plant. And you're like, "Oh my gosh- Yeah ... I just have infinite plants from this one plant." Right? And so- Yeah ... nature is constantly abundant. Mm. Even other examples too, like if you've ever tried to make sourdough bread or kombucha, right, where you have this yeast culture, and then it- The 

[00:12:51] Kym: starter

[00:12:52] Scarlett: right, you have the starter, and then you, it g- it does the thing. It makes the bread. It makes the kombucha, and then it grows. It literally doubles in size, and you're like, "Oh my gosh, how can I even make kombucha without just creating a kombucha factory? Because now I just have an infinite number of starters or scobes."

[00:13:11] And it's because nature is inherently abundant. Mm. One seed of one plant is equivalent to an infinite amount of future plants. Love that. And we are a part of nature, right? Humans are a piece of nature, even if we forget that sometimes. So it's just the world that we live in is inherently one that is rooted in abundance, and the idea that it's not is a human thought that we have implanted in ourselves that's inaccurate to reality.

[00:13:44] Kym: And the therapist in me is going crazy right now 'cause it's like- Uh, it's just bringing up so many good interventions, like somebody that might be in a s- you know, a scarcity mindset, and like, "Okay, let's just start with the sourdough bread. Let's start there to try to break you out of this just to, to, to start getting in that abundance mindset or just see that what you can start can grow to something much bigger."

[00:14:03] You know, I just love that analogy. It's so great. Yeah. So how do you work, how do you work with your coaching clients that might have that scarcity mindset? Is it stuff like that, like interventions like, "Let's start with the sourdough," or, "Let's go outside and put our feet in the ground," or, "Let's plant something"?

[00:14:18] You know- Yes ... how do you help them break out of that? 

[00:14:20] Scarlett: Yeah. I love to use a combination of techniques with my clients. There's the intangible aspect of money, and there's the tangible aspect of money, and I find that doing a combination of both can be really powerful because- Mm-hmm ... one of the most powerful ways that you can change your relationship with money is actually learning how to manage and track your money, right?

[00:14:42] It's easy to have these beliefs that, "Oh, there's not enough if I'm not looking at it and I can't see it," right? But maybe that's not true. Right. Maybe that's not the reality. I've had a client recently, when we first started working together, and we got all her money down on paper so she could see it clearly, and I wrote it out and I said, "Look, you can afford to live your life.

[00:15:06] You can afford-" Yes ... "to survive based on the amount of money you're currently making, and here's how you can make that happen," and it blew her mind. Wow. Because she was like, "Oh my gosh, I've been living decades just thinking that I don't have enough to survive and that I can barely get by." So one piece- Yeah

[00:15:25] of it is really showing my clients the reality, the logical, tangible financial situation, which is so different than only having an emotional, invisible, not accurate relationship with money. So that's one piece, is getting- Mm-hmm ... into the tangibles, which is super powerful. The other piece that I do is a lot of deep coaching work, and we actually do this intangible work before we even look at your money because a lot of people have fears around looking at their money, managing their money.

[00:16:00] So we go into the- Yes ... the deep work first, and the techniques that I like to use include story work. So we go in and we rewrite the childhood stories around the- Ooh ... beliefs around money that were instilled in us from childhood. So we go deep into those stories. We clear them out, and we re-pattern them to instill new abundance-based beliefs.

[00:16:24] I also love to do variations of parts work, and looking at the different parts of ourselves, and uncovering those scarce-based parts of ourselves. Mm-hmm. You know, i- in the coaching world, sometimes there's this common conception of kill the inner critic, right? Like, we wanna get rid of that- Yeah ... part that's bad.

[00:16:44] But what I believe, and I'm sure you can relate to this fr- with your therapy, is how do we take these scare space parts that, yes, are sabotaging us, but are doing it from a place of survival and with the intention- Right ... of keeping us safe, and how do I learn to embody and embrace this self, be grateful for this self, and take the survival piece, but change the beliefs and the unserving patterns, right?

[00:17:09] Mm-hmm. So we go deep into survival, fear, the parts of ourselves, the stories, and the beliefs, and we touch all of that first, and then after that, then we start to look at the money. 

[00:17:20] Kym: You've gotta start there, 'cause it... I mean, I just, even as you're talking, of course I'm thinking of my own childhood. It's like my mom was a, a saver, but she always said we didn't have enough, but we actually did have enough.

[00:17:30] You know, it was like this whole, like, messaging around Just all kinds of stuff. So it, of course, it, it, it like traps you and keeps you from being able to like do anything 'cause you're stuck in this like dialogue around that stuff. And, you know, I don't know about you, but part of my messaging around The Traveling Therapist is like, like you said, I like what you said about like just write it, let's write it down and look at it instead of just having this story in our head that it's not gonna work, you know?

[00:17:53] Because oftentimes there is enough, it's just you're not looking at it the right way or you haven't analyzed it properly, but you can make it work oftentimes. When I, when I sit down with people too in my coaching, it's like, "But look, you've got this and you've got this extra skill and you could do a course around this and, you know, you could make the whole thing work and you could have this passive income."

[00:18:12] And anyway, I just- Yeah ... I love that message and, and I think you're right. I mean, people do need to do that work, especially with this Traveling Therapist things. You know, a lot of people might have a home, they don't know how to like, you know, do I rent the home? Like what do I do around that piece? Like how do I manage all the moving parts to be able to still make enough money and, you know, maybe not, like I did, sell everything and not even have a home.

[00:18:34] But a lot of people are trying to figure out how to manage all that, paying this and that. And I, I just love that you walk them through that whole process. After you get through the childhood stuff, you start changing the, the, the tape, you know, that we're telling ourselves and then work on like how are we actually gonna make this work for you.

[00:18:50] Scarlett: And, and that's why it's so important to do both aspects, the more intangible work and the tangible work, because when you change the core tape and the stories around money, what it does is it opens up what's possible. And that's when you can start to see the possibilities that are here for you with your money.

[00:19:09] Kym: And then 

[00:19:10] Scarlett: you bring in the tangible piece, and that's where you figure out, how can I make 

[00:19:16] Kym: it 

[00:19:16] Scarlett: happen, right? Mm-hmm. Because if you're just walking around life and thinking, "Oh, it's not possible, it's not possible," but that's not based off of anything. That's just a thought you have about money and you and the world.

[00:19:27] So then once you clear that belief and you're like, "I can do anything, like I can really make anything possible. I have the power, I have the control to create whatever kind of life I want to live," and then when you get your money down on paper, that's when you can figure out, so how do I make it happen?

[00:19:45] Which is why- Mm ... in the coaching that I do with money, I don't, I'm not a financial advisor. Like I'm not gonna tell you, "This is exactly what you need to do with your money and- Right ... and don't spend this on this, and you should spend this here, and if you do it differently, then it's wrong." What I do- ... teach my clients to do is how to be in control of their money.

[00:20:06] How to make decisions with their money. How to set a goal for yourself and be able to see your whole financial situation clearly, and build a blueprint and a plan and a strategy to make whatever life you want to live, whatever your vision is, possible. And there's not a one-way-fits-all answer, and there's going to be different solutions, options, and opportunities for everybody, depending on what you want.

[00:20:36] But you're, you won't be able to get there until you have awareness around what's actually happening with your money, and then from there, build your own plan and your own strategy to make it happen and to create your vision 

[00:20:50] Kym: Hmm. That's amazing. I love that. Yeah. So, okay, so, so you see the scarcity mindset a lot.

[00:20:57] Does that tend to be the one that shows up the most, or are there, like, other patterns that maybe somebody listening might be like, "I don't really have the scarcity thing, but I do have this thing"? Is there, like, another pattern you see with people? 

[00:21:08] Scarlett: Yeah. So I would say not enough-ness is- Okay ... super common.

[00:21:12] Like, I- Okay ... and we could, we could say that not enough-ness is similar to scarcity, but- 

[00:21:18] Kym: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:21:18] Scarlett: I see that across the board. And what's interesting is that is not based on the amount of money that you have, right? Because I have worked with clients with very little money who are just starting their businesses and barely getting by, who feel stressed about money and feel not enough-ness.

[00:21:36] I've also worked with clients who do have solid, stable, nine-to-five jobs, and they still feel like they're living paycheck to pay- to paycheck. They're barely getting by. So it's not an amount thing. It's just the underlying core belief. And I've also worked with clients who h- grew up having a lot of money and do have a lot of money, and they don't feel scarce, but there's still an underlying worthiness.

[00:22:02] So that's another thing that I see- Hmm ... that's common is, am I worthy and deserving of having this money, or money is bad, money is evil, so even when I do- 

[00:22:13] Kym: Hmm ... 

[00:22:14] Scarlett: bring in money, my default pattern is actually to get rid of it or pretend like it doesn't exist, right? So there's also this pattern of pushing money away because I'm not deserving of it, or it makes me a bad person to have it.

[00:22:30] And this is super common, especially because I work with entrepreneurs and people creating their own businesses and walking their own path, because- Hmm ... they're, you're pricing your services, and you're asking money- Right ... for those services. So it plays a huge role in your business, your ability to land sales, and your ability to get clients, and fully support- Yeah

[00:22:53] yourself with that business as well. 

[00:22:55] Kym: The therapist mindset, we talk about this a lot in, in, like, the Traveling Therapist Facebook group, but it's like we become therapists, we go to graduate school, we have to, you know, get our master's degrees. We have to oftentimes do internships for no pay. The- Mm-hmm

[00:23:09] professors really have this, like, messaging around if you go into private practice, you're bad, you're evil. You're supposed to go into, like, agency work that pays, like, 20,000 a year, where you've got 50 clients a week, and it's, it's a nightmare for therapists. But the, they, they, like, program you this in gra- most grad schools are like, "This is the path you're supposed to take.

[00:23:30] If you go private practice, if you charge-" Money, like lots of money to see a client, like a private pay clinician, you're bad, you're evil. So it's like implanted in a lot of therapists' minds. And for me, I've got, I've got 15 income streams that I've developed, plus I see some clients still, not that many.

[00:23:47] But, you know, I remember that mindset shift. It was like, you know, who am I to charge for coaching or, you know, create these courses and charge therapists? And it was like this whole-- it took, it took years for me to get out of that mindset. Even when I was working in the agency, I followed the grad school rules.

[00:24:04] I work in the agency, you know, and then, okay, ooh, I'm gonna go into a private group practice, and then like, maybe I could do my own private practice. And then it's like, I need to take insurance so I can still, you know, give back to people and, but insurance doesn't pay well, so it's like this whole evolution for a therapist, you know?

[00:24:20] And then a traveling therapist on top of that, it's like Now I'm gonna have this life where I'm gonna be changing time zones and, you know, expecting my clients to, like, change their schedules for me. Like, it's this whole thing. Like, we don't feel worthy, a lot of therapists, to make more money to live, like, this tradi- uh, like, non-traditional lifestyle because it's just so programmed.

[00:24:40] And then we've got our childhood stuff, too, on top of it, you know? So it's just, like, it's quite the thing. 

[00:24:46] Scarlett: Totally, and I'd love to talk more about this 'cause it's such a big thing for people in, in this field, in this industry, doing similar things as we're doing. And this ties into another scarcity seed, right?

[00:24:58] Yeah. That's what I call these core beliefs, and that is starving artist syndrome. Mm. Which is the idea that either I'm living a life that I love, I'm choosing a career that's fulfilling, but I'm broke. Yeah. Or I'm in an unfulfilling career that I hate, and that is draining, and it sucks, but I have lots of money.

[00:25:18] And the idea that these things- Mm-hmm ... have to be, and should be mutually exclusive, but this is- Mm ... inaccurate. But this is a common society belief that if I enjoy what I'm doing, then I shouldn't be making money for it. Or- Yes ... if I'm a good person, and I'm- Mm ... and I'm doing something out of service for my clients, like therapy or coaching, my intention is to help people, that I shouldn't be getting paid for it, or that it's wrong to charge for it because I should be offering it for free, or because people can't afford it, and I'm actually, like, scamming them or harming them by asking for money.

[00:26:02] And I understand how this makes sense, right? It's like taking people's money is bad, but it's important to note that this is completely inaccurate. This whole belief- Mm ... and this whole thought process is wildly inaccurate because, and I teach this to my clients because they're, they're coaches and entrepreneurs, and they're doing the same work, when you are charging for your services, it is a part of the value that you provide to your clients because you are giving your clients an opportunity to commit to themselves at a higher level, right?

[00:26:42] Mm. I'm sure you have had clients who didn't pay anything for therapy. And they, like how do those clients show up for themselves? Right. Do they even really want to be there, really? 

[00:26:53] Kym: Right. 

[00:26:54] Scarlett: Right. They weren't invested, right, right. Not invested, exactly. Not invested- Mm-hmm ... not committed. Versus if you have a client paying you a lot of money, right?

[00:27:06] Yeah. Whatever a lot is for them, for that person. Mm-hmm. They're going to show up to those sessions. They're there, they're committed, they're invested, and they're able to get a bigger transformation as a result, simply because you gave them the opportunity to commit to themselves at a higher level. E- even though it's uncomfortable for us to get used to doing that, it's actually a high level of service.

[00:27:34] Mm-hmm. It is a high level of service to charge your clients and be willing to go through that discomfort of charging your clients so that you can give them the opportunity to commit to themselves. And, and the- I love that ... the price point can be different, too, right? It's about who are the type of people that you want to help and that you want to attract.

[00:27:52] Mm-hmm. And for some of those people, that high level of commitment might be on the lower end of the financial spectrum. But then there are other people where that high level of commitment, it can be high on the spectrum. And so the idea of, "I need to have low prices, otherwise nobody's going to, to pay me.

[00:28:12] There's nobody out there who's going to be willing to pay this," that's also wildly inaccurate because there are people out- there is somebody out there willing to pay for the services that you offer at any price point. So it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of who. Because your price point is the filter system from which you're attracting your ideal clients.

[00:28:35] So who is the type of person- Love that ... that you want to work with, and what's the commitment level for them that's going to be providing them the service of being able to invest in themselves? I love that mindset shift. 

[00:28:49] Kym: And it's modeling, too. I mean, if you're, if you're expecting higher standards of yourself, you're modeling that to your clients, too, that you can do this also.

[00:28:57] You know, you're, you're no different than me. If I can do it, you can do this in your own life. You can show up this way. I love that, 'cause I, I remember, I mean, it, it burns you out, like, thinking that, you know, you've gotta give discounts and, uh, you know, it's your own scarcity mindset thinking people can't afford it.

[00:29:11] 'Cause I, I think, I could think of an example of this client that had to be on a sliding scale, but every time they would log into my virtual room, you know, it shows, like, the iPhone model, right? It's, like, always the newest, best iPhone model, you know? As a therapist, when you do that stuff, I think it can breed resentment in yourself.

[00:29:28] Like, if you're giving discounts all the time, you start to, like, pick up on little things like that. Like, you know, "I should've charged more. Look, they've got the brand new iPhone," or, "They just took a trip, but they're paying me, like, 20 bucks." That stuff starts to burn a therapist out. I think having that, like, mindset, that scarcity or, you know, I'm not worth- enough.

[00:29:45] I'm not worth enough to demand more for, of myself, more money for myself, all of that. I mean, it's just like a, like a, this repeat pattern that people fall into. Leads back to this, this traveling therapist thing. It's like I can never do it because I don't have the, like you said, the money, I'm not enough, all of that stuff.

[00:30:01] It's not gonna work for me, all of that. 

[00:30:03] Scarlett: It's not only beneficial for your clients in having them to show up in a higher level, committed way, it's also important for you as well in your ability to deliver your highest level of service. That's why I like to talk about the pricing secret sauce with my, with my clients, which is- Ooh

[00:30:21] there's, c- 'cause there's lots of factors to consider when it comes to- Mm-hmm ... your price point, right? There's what do I actually need in order to survive, right? And that's important because- Yeah ... this comes back to knowing your numbers and doing the math. Because if you- 

[00:30:34] Kym: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:30:35] Scarlett: list out this is my reality or this is the kind of life that I wanna live, I wanna be a traveling therapist, this is exactly what it's going to cost and what it's going to look like, now how can I make that happen?

[00:30:47] And it's a simple time, energy, money formula, right? How much time do I have available to take on clients? How many clients can I take on? How much energy capacity do I have to handle my clients and c- client load? And then based off of that, how much do I need to be charging per client in order to support myself, right?

[00:31:08] Mm. So that's the simple- Love that ... math version, but then it, it comes back to the worth version. Once you find that price point, if you're like, "Okay, I can only handle five clients, and I need this much to live," and you look at that price point, like do you believe in your ability to deliver at that value?

[00:31:28] And if not, then something needs to adjust. You need to either increase your belief to deliver at that value, or you can adjust the price accordingly, right? But you wanna do a combination of both. You always wanna be increasing your belief and your ability to deliver value. Mm. And then it's important to recognize if you're overcharging or if you're undercharging in, in misalignment with that belief of the value that you're providing.

[00:31:57] Because exactly like what you're, what you were just saying, if you're undercharging, which I've done that before when I was starting- Yeah ... my coaching business, I was totally undercharging. And then you have the clients and you're like, "Awesome, I'm landing sales. I'm doing it." But then when you're working with that client, you don't show up at your 100% best self.

[00:32:18] You don't show up to bring them the full value because underneath the surface you're like, "Well, they're not paying for my full value, so why would I?" Right. And that's doing a disservice to your clients. It's also doing a massive disservice to you. Yes. Whereas on the other side of the spectrum, if you're overcharging, which is a less common problem, but it can be a problem.

[00:32:42] I've also- Mm-hmm ... experienced this as well, where- Interesting ... people were like, "Just set really high prices." And I was like, "Okay." So I did that. I, I did that, but at the time I didn't have the belief in my ability to deliver at that high price, right? I was just arbitrarily setting a high price, and at the same time when I was having conversations and consults with people- Mm-hmm

[00:33:04] I was subconsciously deterred. I was deterring them and pushing them away, 'cause like- It's like, "

[00:33:09] Kym: Yeah, but you probably can't afford that much. I totally get it," or yeah. 

[00:33:12] Scarlett: Right. Right. That and also like, right, my belief in their ability to pay, but also I'm like, "Please don't say yes, because then I don't know if I can deliver at this value, and I'm afraid of what's gonna happen."

[00:33:25] Totally get that. Right? Totally get that. So it matters. Your price point matters from all of these different angles. The, the tangible aspects of it, but also the energetic, like can I deliver? And my, my secret here is find that edge and price like just on the edge of your comfort zone. Mm. Where you're like, "I know I can deliver this value, and I know it's in alignment with the type of clients that I want to attract," right?

[00:33:52] Yeah. "I know it's on their edge." And then what's just above that edge of the belief that I can deliver, because then what happens is it pushes you to grow, and it pushes you to expand your ability to do your work so that you can even deliver at a higher level as well. So all of that ties into- Love that

[00:34:14] the pricing secret sauce, and it's important for us traveling therapists, entrepreneurs, and coaches. 

[00:34:20] Kym: So how does somebody work with you? Like somebody that's listening and they're like, "This is what I need in my life. This is what's holding me back." How do they find you? How do they work with you? 

[00:34:28] Scarlett: So my signature program is called Empowered Abundance, and it is a six-month container where we will deep dive into everything that we've talked about today.

[00:34:39] We're going to go deep- Nice ... into your scarcity stories, your beliefs around money. We're going to re-pattern all of that, clear all of that out, and also tap into your most abundant self, the vision that you want to create for your life, and how to make that happen financially. You'll learn how to build a financial blueprint, how to be the one in control of your money, to track your money, to manage your money, and use your money strategically to create your vision and make what you want to do inevitable.

[00:35:11] So that's what we do in the Empowered Abundance program. I have groups running throughout the year, right? Nice. So you can reach out to me on my website, thebizhippie.com. You can also connect with me on Instagram, @thebizhippie. I'm very active on Instagram. I love to continue the conversation, so feel free to send me a message and we can chat and connect.

[00:35:35] And then one other thing is I love to offer, for my podcast listeners, a free abundance activation session with me, which is a 30 

[00:35:44] Kym: minute- Oh, I love that. 

[00:35:45] Scarlett: Yeah. It, it's super fun. It's a th- 30 minute deep dive where we're gonna dive into your relationship with money, clear out and look at and bring awareness to any scarcity blocks that have been holding you back.

[00:35:59] We're gonna get really clear on what your vision is, and we'll develop a strategy to help you get there. So if you'd like to claim your abundance activation session, you can do that on my website, thebizhippie.com/activate. 

[00:36:13] Kym: Well, Scarlett, thanks so much for coming today. I can't wait to share this with the audience.

[00:36:17] If you guys, of course, have questions or wanna reach out to her, check the show notes and work with her. I think you're amazing. You've got some really good tools in your tool belt to help the traveling therapist that needs this work. Yeah. Thank you. 

The Financial Blind Spots Costing Your Practice Money with Robert Freels

Most therapists can rattle off every diagnostic code without blinking, but ask about their break-even number and things get quiet. Those are exactly the financial blind spots we're unpacking in this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast. I sit down with Rob Freels, founder of FreeRivers CFO Advisory, who spent 25 years across banking, auditing, and 16 years as a CFO before turning his attention to healthcare and mental health practice owners.

Rob breaks down where money actually disappears before it ever hits your bank account, why those losses hit harder the bigger your practice gets, and the one number he says matters more than revenue or profit. If you've ever felt like your finances are a mystery you don't have time to solve, this conversation gives you a place to start.

PLEASE NOTE: In the episode, Rob mentions that contribution margin is revenue minus fixed costs, but he actually meant revenue minus variable costs.

In This Episode, We Explore…

• The invisible fees eating into your revenue before it ever hits your account.
• Why those percentages get more expensive the bigger your practice grows.
• The one financial metric Rob says matters more than revenue or cash flow.
• How to know when it's time to bring in more than a bookkeeper.
• A free calculator that shows you exactly where you stand.

Connect with Robert Freels:
Website: https://freeriverscfo.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robfreels/
Free Break-even Calculator: https://freeriverscfo.com/tolson

Connect with me:

Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab

Subscribe to the Podcast:

Apple iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcast | Stitcher | Amazon | Castbox

______________________________

Sponsored by Berries:  Say goodbye to the burden of mental health notes with automated note and treatment plan creation! https://heyberries.com/therapists

Sponsored by Alma: Managing a private practice can be challenging. There are obstacles at every turn — from navigating the credentialing process, to managing finances, to finding new clients. That’s where Alma can help. Alma is on a mission to simplify access to mental health care by focusing first and foremost on supporting clinicians. https://helloalma.com/kym

______________________________

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Kym: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist Podcast. We have Rob Friels with us. Rob didn't come to finance through a textbook.

[00:00:09] He came to it by watching his family navigate real financial hardship growing up and learning the hard way what happens when nobody's watching the numbers. I would love to hear about that, Rob, actually. That's super interesting to me. 25 years later, across banking, auditing, and 16 years as a CFO, he's built a career on one idea: catch the problem in the numbers early enough, and it doesn't have to become a crisis.

[00:00:34] Now, as founder of Free River CFO Advisory, he brings that same instinct to healthcare and mental health practice owners who are busy, profitable on paper, and one bad month from finding out the hard way.

[00:00:46] Oh, my gosh, we gotta talk about this. Now, normally I have therapists on here, but occasionally I do have guests like you, Rob, that can help the therapists that are listening, so let's get into this.

[00:00:57] I'd love to hear about your background first and how you got into this. So interesting

[00:01:01] Rob: So yeah, my grandfather we had like a hardware store, like I was born in '77, so like I grew up in the '80s, right? He had a hardware store. They had appliances and all that stuff. And then in the mid-'80s, Walmart came to town, and we watched the gradual decline.

[00:01:14] And by like 1990, like five or something like that, he had to declare bankruptcy, and my parents had to transition and shift. And they figured it out. They did a good job. And when I was in college, you know, I ha- it's hate to say this, but like my parents, I had to keep telling them, "Hey, you need to save some money, right?"

[00:01:29] You know, like that. And they, and they never did. They ended up burning through everything. So I've watched it happen like through two generations of my life. So I kinda take it very seriously. And that's kind of why I went, you know, I have an econ undergrad and then the MBA in finance and another master's in accounting. So just trying to make sure that I cover my butt, so to speak.

[00:01:49] Kym: That's so interesting. Now, I know you help a lot of different, like, industries, but how'd you get into therapy practices? That's so interesting that you're, like, specializing in that, 'cause I don't always see that when I interview, like, this type of professional, you know?

[00:02:02] Rob: Right. Sure. So, I mean, I didn't pick it out of like a, you know, market report. I was already working with a mental health group practice. When I got there, I kind of expected like to see a fairly simple set of books, and it wasn't, you know. M-multiple clinicians, like everyone on a different arrangement revenue that arrives in sessions in-instead of like invoices, you know.

[00:02:20] half of it was routed through like insurance that pays, you know, whenever we feel like it, and we won't go there. But it was actually a lot more interesting than most of like the manufacturing or the other stuff I had I'd done in the past. I'd spent 16 years also as a CFO for a four-provider podiatry practice.

[00:02:36] so I know exactly what it looks like when the money side starts eating at the owner's, you know, into the owner's week. Mental health, the therapy practices they kinda sit in like a gap. They're complicated enough to genuinely need like a CFO, but they're far too small to like hire one.

[00:02:51] So they end up with a bookkeeper, a tax person they see once or twice a year and nothing in between. And the owner ends up, you know, doing most of that CFO work at 10 o'clock at night on like a, on a spreadsheet that they built themselves.

[00:03:02] Kym: Yeah, I've been there.

[00:03:03] Rob: yeah, and you know, they don't go to graduate school for counseling just because they w- you know, they wanna learn how to run a business.

[00:03:08] They went 'cause they wanna help people, you know? One day a few years down the road, they've got six clinicians, and they got payer contracts and a payroll, and every hour they're spent working on that is not what they actually... An hour that they didn't actually get to do what they were trained for, and that's a bad trade, you know?

[00:03:22] And lastly, I'll say on this one, it's like it's one of the last corners of healthcare that's still mostly owned by the people that are doing the work, you know? Everything else is getting rolled up in private equity and hospital purchases. And I'm a huge proponent of small business ownership, so I mean, I'm gonna try to keep it that way, you know?

[00:03:38] When the owners get burned out, you know, and they, they don't even wanna read their own numbers anymore, that's when they sell. So, you know, the finance side isn't really about the money. It's just about staying independent long enough to choose.

[00:03:48] Kym: Absolutely. for people that are listening, what does a CFO do in case they're like, "I don't even know what that means"? How would you explain a CFO?

[00:03:57] Rob: CFOs normally have a, a pretty technical background in some sort of like, banking, auditing stuff that I've already done.

[00:04:03] So I'll say this, like the banking taught me like what a business does and what it looks like from the outside , especially when it's about to be in trouble. Auditing taught me where all the bodies are buried.

[00:04:13] Kym: Yeah.

[00:04:14] Rob: but as the CFO, and this is the part that matters like to your audience, is w- it's like running the finances of that, you know, the f- the four-provider practice, you know.

[00:04:22] You have to deal with like the payer mix, the denials, the provider productivity, receivables book that sits like 90 days out sometimes, you know. That's all... It's not theory. It's all stuff that has to be dealt with, and you need somebody who understands the numbers. And it's one thing to see them, and you learn them over time through, you know, school of hard knocks, kind of, as, you know, as a, as a provider or an owner.

[00:04:43] Like you didn't go to school for this stuff. But you need somebody that can help translate that. you know, bookkeepers, they'll, they'll give you like a P&L or a balance sheet, like a couple things, and you can look at, but you don't really know what it means if you're an owner 'cause you didn't go to school to know what that means.

[00:04:59] So m- my job is to help translate what it means like when you're reading. Like, "Hey, you know, your revenue is down 4% and if you look at..." And that makes me think, "Okay, this is without telling the owner first. I'm gonna go on my own, and I'm gonna look at the number of sessions. Okay, the number of sessions are down this month also.

[00:05:15] Or is the the AR, how long is the A, you know, the insurance AR come, you know, is it lagging?" And stuff like that. So I'm helping translate that variance a lot, and then giving advice on what to do

[00:05:24] Kym: that's super interesting. Yeah, because I mean, the w- the last thing that therapists ever do is look at their numbers. I mean, there's exceptions, but a lot of us are really bad with that, you know?

[00:05:34] Rob: It's intimidating, you know? It's like me trying to look at like the-- It's like me trying to f- look, look at the diagnostic codes. I don't know. You

[00:05:40] Kym: Exactly. Right. Exactly. Same thing. Yeah. That's a good point. So from your perspective in working with a lot of, like, practices, I know you work with solo and groups, but mostly group practices, what's the biggest financial blind spot that you see in therapy practice, especially those that are scaling from solo to group?

[00:06:00] Rob: Sure. Okay. Um, The blind spot, it's not really a number, it's more like a shape. Uh, money leaks as a percentage, and usually right off the top before it ever hits the bank. And nobody ever sees that scary line item. Like, they just see the revenue that hits, but they don't see what the revenue that never showed up.

[00:06:18] Like a, you know, the billers take a cut. You know, credit card processing is netted now. Like, you don't even see the credit card processing fee. You know, out of network platform, they're taking a slice. You know, all those are invisible but they're all compounding underneath. And to hit the group part, it's actually even worse when it goes to a group because the fee scales with your revenue, right?

[00:06:39] Most of those fees do. S- so the work behind it doesn't. You know, that's the interesting part. So you set a contract, and you only have 40 sessions a month, like a solo practice. And that fee is usually, you know, a few hundred bucks, and that's totally fine. But you hit 400 sessions in a group practice, that's a, that's one of your biggest vendor lines and the biggest checks you'll write all, you know, all year.

[00:06:57] And nobody ever went back and repriced it, you know? Like, those rates were built back when billers were, like, sending out paper claims, and, and all that labor collapsed in the digital age. And, but the rates never moved, 

[00:07:08] Kym: Yeah, that's a good point.

[00:07:10] Rob: Yeah. So there was actually a survey out, I think this month from Insura, you know, it's, that's an EHR and, you know, take your conclusions with a grain of salt with that, right?

[00:07:18] But the methodol- the methodology they used, like there's 1,100 plus therapists it was reviewed by clinical experts of the American Counseling Association. They asked practices to like rate themselves across like five areas, and the financial health came in dead last. Like only nine, only 9% said that it was a strength, like nine.

[00:07:36] So it's not really a blind spot that the owners, you know, they're not bad with money. It's that the money leaves in percentages and those percentages no one's looking at and no one's adding them up over time.

[00:07:47] Kym: interesting. Yeah.

[00:07:48] Rob: yeah.

[00:07:49] Kym: So how do you catch it? I mean, I guess you have a CFO to help you catch it, but i- anybody listening that maybe doesn't have, like, the capacity or the, or the ability to hire one, like, right now, how, where would they look for that? Like, how would they start to pay attention to something like that if there's, like, that invisible bleed that you're not really paying attention to?

[00:08:07] Rob: I mean, you can... Number one, like some of the deliverables I have use percentage of income on them, so you'll be able to tell. And it, and I have like, I say benchmarks in my, like program that tell me like, "Hey, this is above this percentage. It's, it's a red flag, so we need to look here, here, and here," that kind of stuff.

[00:08:24] But I think that the percentage is by itself is like the wrong question to ask. I mean, some of those things you need to convert to dollars when you're talking about volume. So, you know, 8%, like I said, 8% of the solo practice, then I'm just using a, a round number, like from a billing company, like a, on the Facebook forums, like you see 7, 8%.

[00:08:42] But their percentage, you know, like, like 8% of like a solo practice, you know, is a few hundred dollars a month. Completely fine and totally legit. Absolutely. And the 8% at 400 sessions, again, a lot different.

[00:08:53] You wanna look at the dollar amount on that and not the, the percentage, 'cause it's always gonna be percentage. But if you have, if you collect like $2 million a year, 8% of that, I mean, you can either bring that in-house or you can negotiate that down some, right? That's the big thing is nobody knows to negotiate those billing rates and also shop them.

[00:09:09] And that's another thing that people don't really do anymore. They don't shop around, and that should be like on everybody's radar once a year or twice a year to shop and get three other pricing models and just accept the fact that they're gonna flood your inbox, you know,

[00:09:22] Kym: Yeah, that's true. Once you do that, you're gonna get... Like me, I get, like, five texts a week just like, "Do you need billing services?" It's like, "No, I don't. Thank you. I don't know how you got my number."

[00:09:32] Rob: I

[00:09:33] Kym: Yeah, it's obnoxious.

[00:09:34] Rob: yeah, I'm, I'm not really a huge fan of sales. So it's kind of a... I don't really push my service onto anybody. I'm only here to help, right? That's just

[00:09:43] Kym: Yeah, yeah

[00:09:43] Rob: if you need it, I'm here for you. If you don't, that's cool. I'm good. I'll be here when you do need it.

[00:09:48] Kym: Yeah, no, that's, that's awesome. Yeah, absolutely. It's such an important thing because I think what happens with private practice owners is, like, you get a billing person, right? And then, like you're saying, you should be shopping, you should be comparing rates, you should be doing that.

[00:10:02] But then you get into this mindset of, like, you know, it's too complicated. This... I'm gonna have to bring a new person in to understand my systems and all of that, so it just gets maybe overwhelming, and you don't think about doing it because you don't wanna, like, have to, like, train somebody new or bring somebody in and have to go through that whole process, 'cause you're already burned out as running the practice, you know?

[00:10:22] so I think it's good to have people like you to say, "You know what? Why don't you at least look at some different prices here?" Because I think that kinda falls off our radar when we're running businesses as, like, small business owners.

[00:10:33] Rob: Absolutely. I mean, again, you only have so much, so many hours in the day that you can devote to it without just going completely frazzled. I've seen it.

[00:10:40] Kym: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's like I just don't have the capacity to deal with it, so I'm not going to kind of thing.

[00:10:45] Rob: Right. It bleeds, like, you know. And plus it seems like a harder thing to do because it's not something most of them went to-- You know, they didn't, they didn't study this kind of stuff, so it seems like almost an insurmountable, like, goal. So most people, I think, at least I do anyway, I try to tackle easy tasks as much as possible and keep the, you know, the bigger tasks, I kind of let them sit there and linger, right? I'm like, "Oh, that's not a good idea either."

[00:11:08] Kym: Yeah. Yeah, right,

[00:11:09] Rob: Yeah, right.

[00:11:10] Kym: So what is the, like, telltale sign that a practice has outgrown, like, a bookkeeper and they actually need a CFO or, like, real financial guidance from somebody? Like, how do you know when to do that, when to shift into that?

[00:11:24] Rob: Sure. I think it's when you see the owners asking questions in public, on public forums and stuff. You know, when they start asking strangers to help you make five-figure decisions like, you know, for example, like, "Hey, should I bring billing in-house?" Or, you know, "Should I leave insurance?" Or, "Is my biller worth 8%?"

[00:11:42] All of those, posts will get, 30 comments but with zero numbers, like, every time. the question they're asking is really a substitution. What they really wanna know is, "How much is this costing me?" But that question really kinda feels unanswerable, so they ask something that feels answerable instead.

[00:12:00] like, "Oh, how hard is it?" Or, "How long does it take?" Or, "Who do you recommend?" They know what's wrong they just don't know how much it costs. So a bookkeeper answers what happened. A CFO answers what should I do? The moment you've got a decision with a comma in the dollar figure and nobody to ask, then you've outgrown the bookkeeper.

[00:12:21] Kym: Smart. Yeah, that's really smart.

[00:12:24] Rob: and, and it's nothing against bookkeepers. Look, I do it my... I do bookkeeping myself, you know. It's very necessary. It's just you wanna have somebody doing your bookkeeping who is, you know, trained to know what to look at and how to deliver

[00:12:39] Kym: Right

[00:12:41] Rob: deliver the why as well as the what, you know?

[00:12:45] Kym: That makes sense. Yeah. 'Cause I guess a bookkeeper, right,

[00:12:47] Rob: Yeah.

[00:12:48] Kym: they just, like, take the numbers from here, put the numbers here, and then pay the taxes or whatever, right? Or tell you how much to pay in taxes, that kind of thing. There's no, like, like, experienced financial advisor, like, decision-making that's going on in that process usually, right?

[00:13:04] Rob: Right, exactly. That's why I auto- that's why I automated my bookkeeping component. I know that you deal a lot with AI. I don't know which... I wa- I'm curious, what, what platform do you use most? Do you use ChatGPT or Claude or, or both?

[00:13:17] Kym: to be ChatGPT, like I was diehard ChatGPT, and then Claude got really good. So I've been using Claude, but then ChatGPT just, like, released a bunch of really good stuff. So

[00:13:26] Rob: I know. You know what? It's actually good what I-- Yeah. Right, yeah, I know, but it's usually good to have them, pit them against one another, if you ever thought about doing that. Like say, you know, you take, take your output from one and throw it in the other, and then they can like... You could see like the... And they're, they're so nice about it.

[00:13:41] But again, you gotta be c- conscious of the sycophant syndrome that they have. Like, they're always like complimentary of everything. It's like, "Okay, I need you to be tell me what's wrong," you know?

[00:13:52] Kym: Yeah, be a little critical here. Use some critical thinking, please.

[00:13:57] Rob: Exactly.

[00:13:59] Kym: Yeah, yeah. No, Claude, Claude's probably the one I go to now right now, and it's, you know, after you use one for a while, it just starts to get to know everything about you, so it's like, like I was saying before, the billers know everything about you.

[00:14:10] You don't wanna switch to a new biller.

[00:14:11] Rob: That's, no, that's true.

[00:14:13] Kym: Yeah. Mm-hmm

[00:14:14] Rob: Yeah, absolutely

[00:14:16] Kym: But yeah, I use all of them actually. Manus, Claude, Perplexity, ChatGPT

[00:14:22] Rob: Okay, I've never used Manus or Perplexity, but I've used Groq and

[00:14:26] Kym: Mm-hmm

[00:14:28] Rob: Groq, ChatGPT, Claude, and oh, Gemini. Gemini, but, eh, Gemini is kinda, it lags still.

[00:14:34] Kym: good.

[00:14:35] Rob: I know.

[00:14:36] Kym: So, so you're using... Are you using AI then to automate your, what you're doing to help

[00:14:42] Rob: Oh, absolutely. That's what that's, that's how I'm able to do the CFO part of the work, is the only way I could do that is if I automated, if I learned how to automate the bookkeeping. And that's been a process too, by the way. You gotta build in, like... So this is where the auditing came in handy for me, is like I'm able to, to build controls around where it's sometimes if you're not ca- if you're not careful, AI will start pulling numbers from other things that it's pulled before that aren't tied to like a direct input from like the client.

[00:15:11] So, or like their books or like their bank statement or their payroll records. Like, when I was trying to develop this it w- I, I tried to get like a contribution margin on the clinicians that I was looking at. Contribution margin is basically your revenue minus your fixed cost, and that's the leftover.

[00:15:26] So I'm trying to figure out what that margin is. But when it looked at their pay rates, it pulled from some other file that we had done in the past, and it y- and it calculated them incorrectly. So I can't give that as a deliverable, you know, to a client that's like, "Hey, wait, you didn't even give me the right payroll numbers.

[00:15:40] How can I trust you for anything? How

[00:15:42] Kym: Yeah, exactly.

[00:15:44] Rob: So yeah, I, I automated it. It, it's taken a, it's taken a while, but again, Claude, you know, if you, if you build the guardrails, it actually, it does really well. And I'm, I still have the knowledge and the, and the, the background to be able to know what I'm looking at and to double check my, double check its work, which, you know, technically my work, I guess.

[00:16:02] You know, and I guess for bookkeepers, like they, you know, most practices they pay like between like $300 to $500 a month to categorize transactions, close the books, and, you know, it's, that's real money buying a record of what already happened. Very necessary, but it, it doesn't tell you anything, you

[00:16:17] Kym: Yeah

[00:16:18] Rob: S- so back in

[00:16:21] Kym: Mm-hmm

[00:16:21] Rob: the pre-AI days, like I, I was able to develop a process or system to take my close, which was like averaging 18 days down to like 12. That's again, without AI. And it... The difference wasn't effort, it was the I s- I s- you know, stopped depending on one person remembering the order of the things that happened.

[00:16:38] Like I was like, I had to, I had to set up a systematic process of how I'm going to run through the close. And when it runs on a process instead of a person, there's two things that happen. Like one, the books are done in days, not weeks, so that those numbers that you receive from me are gonna be relevant because you just finished up.

[00:16:55] And the second one is that the money that was buying data entry is now buying somebody who reads and interprets it. So

[00:17:03] like, one of the groups that I saw recently, like there was a practice owner, you know, 'cause August it's mid-year, they needed some reports and they were complaining that their bookkeeper had just gone silent.

[00:17:13] They couldn't get ahold of them. They weren't fired, they weren't fighting. Who knows if they were on vacation, they were just gone, non-responsive. And that's not quality problem, that's a single person dependency problem. So the automated month-end close it, that runs on a process that process, it doesn't go MIA, like at all.

[00:17:33] Kym: Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. So you can get real time numbers. 'Cause I, I mean, I have a bookkeeper, I guess she's a... Yeah, she's really a bookkeeper that I use, and I swear it'll be like four or five months before she goes in and reconcile stuff. And then it's like, wow, you know, I probably should have like, realized that I was spending this much on this and maybe, you know, had less money coming in here.

[00:17:53] And I'll go back and try to interpret it, but it's, it's really good to have like real time numbers almost, like pretty close to real time. That's

[00:18:00] Rob: Yeah, if you, if you-- I mean, and again, it also depends on how fast the, the client can get you, like, your bank statements and, you know, you know. Or essentially, if you can get, if I can get, like, read-only access to, like, the bank stuff and then the pay-- like the, if they use a payroll company, that stuff, then I can do it myself and I can have it done in, like, five days.

[00:18:18] So, yeah. And the reports I give out, they're not just, like, spitting out the P&L. It's gonna have, like, comment sections that say, "Hey, look, you were down from, you know, 2% this time last year, and your sessions were up 1%, so we need to look into this further," kind of thing, you know, to get direction. Yeah.

[00:18:36] Kym: And then what would, what would the clinician do for, with that? They would call you up and say like,

[00:18:41] Rob: Oh, yeah. We would have like a, we'd have like a once a month call, like 45, yeah, about an hour, 45 minutes, something like that. Or, or, or whatever it needs. If they need some more you know, specific help or like a special project kind of thing, it's absolutely, you know, I'm there to help. That's-- My goal is it's just like, you know, being a clinician.

[00:18:59] I'm here to help you.

[00:19:01] And, and my, and my performance is based on their success. So I wanna be, you know, as successful in my own right, which means it translates to their success

[00:19:12] Kym: Yeah, absolutely. So what what else could you, could you tell a clinician maybe that's listening that might just be struggling financially? Like, is there things that they should, that you could say, like, "You always should look at this number, this number, this number to get a good snapshot of it of the health of your practice"?

[00:19:31] So yeah, I just wonder, are there, like, some, like, red flags or something that, that people listening might be able to think through or,

[00:19:38] Rob: Hmm. Yeah there's one. It's the breakeven sessions per week. Breakeven sessions per week. Not revenue, not profit, not cash. The number of sessions that a practice, you know, has to deliver each week to cover everything before the owner makes a dollar. That's the one you really wanna know. So you look at the other ones like revenue, that tells you what happened.

[00:20:00] Cash, you know, tells you what you have, but even that's a kind of a lie because half of that money's already spoken for already, you know? The breakeven is the only one that actually is forward-looking. It's the line you're either above or below this week. And you can act on it on Monday or you, and s- and have it fixed by Friday, right?

[00:20:18] So you can fix your, your real time. That's the one you wanna follow. A- a- and honestly, the breakeven, like once you know it, every other decision gets easier. Like for example, can I hire? I mean, that's just does the new clinician cover their own breakeven, right? Or should I take that lower paying panel? Now you're working just from arithmetic and it's not a gut call.

[00:20:40] You're not just making it 'cause it sounds good. Or should I raise rates, you know? Like, well, you can see exactly how many clients you can afford to lose and offset it, right? But most owners, I d- I think at least, at least from what I've seen in the past, most owners never run that number because it, it, it looks harder than it actually is to calculate.

[00:20:59] Actually I built a free calculator that does it. All they would need to d- yeah, all they need to do is put in their sessions, their rate, and their fixed costs, and it'll tell you the number. That's available on my website freeriverscfo.com. That's free rivers, as in plural, more than one river.

[00:21:15] And and /tolson at the end there. That's your last name.

[00:21:18] Kym: Oh, nice

[00:21:19] Rob: yeah, and there's no sales pitch on the other end. It just gives you the numbers. So I'm not, you know, like I said, I'm not looking to... Yeah, I'm not trying to sell anybody anything.

[00:21:28] Kym: You don't have to opt into a sales call or anything like that with it. Yeah.

[00:21:31] Rob: Exactly right. No.

[00:21:32] Kym: cool. Yeah

[00:21:33] Rob: p- yeah, you want, I want people to reach out to me 'cause they need my help.

[00:21:36] I'm not gonna start proactively like knocking on doors and things like that

[00:21:40] Kym: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:41] Rob: So, but that's, that's the number. That's the one thing I would, I would definitely like look for. And I also think the other... If I had to choose something else that I don't think a lot of bookkeepers do, and it's a cash flow statement.

[00:21:53] 'Cause when you look at your P&L, like, you know, it gives you a paper number, right, as a profit. I-- number one, I don't like the name P&L 'cause profit and loss implies there's gonna be a loss. The o- the other version is called income statement. I like that one better 'cause at least it doesn't say anything negative.

[00:22:07] It just says income statement, right? But the cash flow stat- the fa- the cash flow statement is the most important of those statements because it reconciles that net income or loss to what your bank balance is. So you can, you can translate from one to the other and, and understand how... You know, 'cause sometimes there'll be months where you made money, but your cash goes down.

[00:22:26] Well, was there three payrolls, or did you put... You invest money somewhere? Did you take an owner's draw? Something like that, that doesn't actually hit the books directly in that way. So those are things also that I, I, I have comments on and reconcile in my deliverables.

[00:22:40] Kym: Yeah. Oh, that's really cool. Yeah. It sounds so helpful. So if people wanna work with you, you said your website, is that the best way to find you and work with you, is to go to your website?

[00:22:50] Rob: Yes, it's my website. Let me get to my... Oh, there we go. Yeah. Again, I'll say it again, it's freeriverscfo.com/tolson. Again, free-- yeah, freerivers, like free as in the first four letters of my last name, rivers as in plural, and then cfo.com and then slash your last name, Tolson

[00:23:07] Kym: Love it. That's amazing. Well, thank you for taking the time today to come talk to us. Super interesting, helpful.

[00:23:14] Rob: Yeah. Anybody has anything, just reach out

[00:23:16] Kym: Okay. Thanks a lot

How to Financially Prepare for Your Next Hire with Carla Titus

Before you post that job listing, you need a plan to financially prepare for your next hire, and that's exactly what today's guest walks us through. Carla Titus is a CFO who works with therapy practices of all sizes, and she breaks down why so many owners jump into hiring before they've actually looked at the numbers.

In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, Carla and I dig into what it actually costs to bring on a new clinician, from the ramp-up period to tracking performance once they're on your team. If you've ever hired someone and then panicked three months later wondering where the money went, this one is for you.

n This Episode, We Explore…

• Why the ramp-up period costs more than most owners plan for.
• What cash runway actually means before you bring on a new hire.
• How to track a remote clinician's performance without living in the dashboard.
• What to do when a clinician isn't hitting their numbers.
• How to know when it's time to cut an underperforming vendor or team member.

Connect with Carla Titus:
Website: https://www.wealthworthwithin.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/wealthworthwithin/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wealthworthwithin/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wealthworthwithin
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@wealthandworthwithin
Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ceo-financial-clarity-corner-podcast-money-strategy/id1818238749 

Connect with me:

Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab

Subscribe to the Podcast:

Apple iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcast | Stitcher | Amazon | Castbox

______________________________

Sponsored by Berries:  Say goodbye to the burden of mental health notes with automated note and treatment plan creation! https://heyberries.com/therapists

Sponsored by Alma: Managing a private practice can be challenging. There are obstacles at every turn — from navigating the credentialing process, to managing finances, to finding new clients. That’s where Alma can help. Alma is on a mission to simplify access to mental health care by focusing first and foremost on supporting clinicians. https://helloalma.com/kym

______________________________

Transcript:

[00:00:06] Kym: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist podcast. Now, normally I have therapists here that are traveling, but occasionally you guys know that I do bring in guests that can help us be better traveling therapists, and that's what Carla Titus does.

[00:00:20] So Carla, so excited to have you here today. We're gonna talk about how to financially prepare for your next hire, Traveling therapists, right? A lot of them listening, us, them, uh, might wanna scale, right? They might be like, "Okay, this admin is killing me," or like, "I'm ready to, bring on new clinicians," or, "I need to like figure out my fan- financial situation so I can manage this stuff better," or just like, "How the heck do I get out of this business and let it run itself?" And that's where Carla comes in. So Carla, can you tell us about yourself? And then we can like dig into the nitty-gritty of how you help therapists.

[00:00:55] Carla: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Kim. I'm so excited. I love talking to therapists. They're our favorite kind of clients. They're just so aware and, you know, so in- introspective, and they know they need help, so re- they reach out when needed uh, when it's beyond what they can solve on their own. And yeah, our background is all in financial management for businesses.

[00:01:15] I was doing it for corporate before. My team is all experienced or ex-corporate people that have a passion to help small businesses thrive. And honestly, you know, you didn't get into business to do the financial side. You got into business 'cause you love what you do. You're passionate about serving patients and helping them with their treatment plans and getting them, you know, to a good, healthy state, and you can't do that if the money gets in the way.

[00:01:38] And so we say you wanna have profit because businesses are in business to make profit, but it's to fuel the purpose that you have behind the work you wanna do. So we wanna close the gap on that and get better at financial management so it doesn't get in the way of you accomplishing your goals

[00:01:53] Kym: Yes. And you know, I, before I hit record, I was talking to Carla. I was like, "How do we tie this into Traveling Therapist?" And she's like, "Oh my gosh, there's so many ways." Like, they're virtually remote, like their entire team is remote, right, with with Carla and her team. But ba- basically any therapist that wants to travel and run their practice remotely or, you know, like we were saying before, scale it up and out so you're not, like, in your business so much.

[00:02:14] So Carla's primary role I guess is CFO, right? I guess that is your primary title. Could you just tell us what a CFO is just in case people are like, "What the heck is that?"

[00:02:24] Carla: Yeah. So if you're not familiar with the term yet chief financial officer. So this are the role that Fortune 500 companies have, where the CEO, AKA you the owner, and the CFO, which is the data person, the analysis, the financial insights, come together to make better decisions. And so we call it, the super powering your gut instinct.

[00:02:45] 'Cause a lot of you use your gut instinct to make decisions right now, but you're not looking at the data. So we want you to just add that to it to give you additional context on why you're feeling the way you're feeling, and really just gain those insights so you're like, "You see, I knew it. I knew that was off.

[00:03:00] I knew that we're doing well here." But now the data validates that feeling, either good or bad, and helps you make decisions moving forward. So that's the function of a CFO, is to partner with the CEO to help them. And then when it comes to, you know, scaling and hiring, those are really big decisions. You don't wanna do them alone.

[00:03:18] You wanna do them with informed data at your hands on, like, how can we make this work for the practice? What is this gonna contribute to the practice bottom line? And how are we gonna manage these people remotely to make sure they're actually performing? 'Cause all of that contributes to a profitable, sustainable practice

[00:03:39] Kym: Yes. Okay. So help us demystify the numbers because, I mean, honestly, I don't know if all therapists are this way, but, and you probably see it a lot more than me, but if I hear like we need to crunch numbers or even like gather numbers, my brain like literally shuts down. I'm like, "I don't know. I don't wanna deal with it.

[00:03:54] I don't wanna think about it." I mean, I've gotten much better with that in my like businesses that I run now. But how do you demystify that? Like, let's go with like a solo practitioner maybe like, and steps in with you for the first time with an appointment. Like how do we even start to pull the numbers in? Like what does that even look like?

[00:04:10] Carla: Yeah. So the beauty of the work we do is that we're able to narrow down the things that are important for your practice and really help you understand what's happening before we get into the nitty-gritty, 'cause there's so many numbers you can look at, right? And often I see people are paralyzed by the amount of numbers you can be tracking, and worse yet, they don't even make a decision or change anything because of the numbers they're tracking because they have no idea what to do with it.

[00:04:37] And so we wanna change that. So we'll start with the basic ones, which is what is your revenue? How much money did you brought into this, you know, monthly sales, and how many patients did you treat? How many clinical sessions did you completed? The revenue generation's the first step. Like, it doesn't end there, right?

[00:04:53] Like, that's just top line, what we call it. It's the starting point. Now you're gonna look at your expenses, like how much is it costing you to run this business? Regardless of size, this applies, by the way, from solo to, like, 100-plus therapists, doesn't matter. Like, these are the numbers we look at just in case you're wondering. And

[00:05:11] Kym: would know, I'll just say, 'cause you manage practices that have, like, 70, 80, 100 clinicians, right?

[00:05:17] Carla: Yes, for sure. And they have different complexity, but the numbers boil down to the same metrics because as you're scaling your practice, you still care about these numbers. You just might have different layers of how you look at the numbers that make more sense as you add complexity as you grow your practice.

[00:05:35] Once you look at expenses, like there should be some money left. I know, like shocking, like when I walk people through like the basics of business, right? Finance, is you make more than you spend. I know, crazy how simple that is, but it is literally what we're going for. And then that leftover is called profit.

[00:05:53] Like did you make profit this month? Did you spend more than you brought in? Now you have a loss. Now you gotta understand why that happened and how you're gonna fix it going forward to make sure that doesn't happen again. Maybe your clinical session count was down. Maybe people canceled on you and your cancel rate is up.

[00:06:10] could be something related to the environment, it could be economic situation, it could be a many different things, but you need to understand why that changed and how you're gonna recover from it. And then you say, "Well, I gotta rebook everyone." So we wanna make sure sessions are healthy, right? They're up, consistent.

[00:06:26] Maybe you need to bring in more patients. Maybe you don't have enough to complete your sessions. So this is where you start to look at, okay, inside revenue, how is this revenue created, and what are the levers we can pull that we can start managing more actively to know, oh, that's down, that's why we didn't make as much.

[00:06:43] Oh, look, that's up. That means we might need to get ready to hire another therapist. So these are the indicators we wanna start looking at. And again, not too many, just pick like your top three to five maybe that you consistently look at. Revenue, expenses, profit are good ones to start with, and then completed sessions, cancel rates can be the other ones to just understand how that's happening.

[00:07:05] Kym: Interesting. And as, the CFO, I mean, you kinda take over that part of it, right? So you'd be, like, managing and monitoring and then kinda giving reports back, I guess, to

[00:07:14] Carla: You got it

[00:07:15] Kym: " looks like this has dipped. Maybe we need to bump this. We need to pay attention to this and, and that." And then do you give strategies on how to, like, do that stuff when, when these things have dipped or they're looking a little not good?

[00:07:27] Carla: Yeah. So the first piece we do as outsourced CFOs is we take this off your plate, right? So we're now the ones responsible doing this work, pulling the data, analyzing it, gl- getting insights so we can then share those with you as a CEO, and then helping you decide what are you gonna do about it, 'cause that's really the more important part of our job is what are we doing about this?

[00:07:46] How do we wanna change it? But first, it starts with awareness. We need to know if cancels are up, why? Why did that happen? Is that something that is in our control? Is it a summer break and it's just slow season and we know this is coming, so we should have prepared for it? You know, what's happening in your practice that's in your control?

[00:08:05] Then we wanna address it. What is the thing we're gonna do next to make sure we improve on that metric? 'Cause now that we know the metric's down, or maybe the metric's up and we're like, "What are we doing right? Let's do more of that."

[00:08:17] Kym: Yeah, I like that

[00:08:18] Carla: that good work. Yeah, I love that part too, 'cause sometimes it's not all about doom and gloom, right?

[00:08:23] Sometimes, like, things are going well. Let's do more of what's working and less of what's not working, 'cause we don't wanna work harder, we just wanna work smarter. And that's what the metrics do for you. It starts to highlight things where things are well and you wanna do more of it. So you wanna ask, what did we do differently in April last year that made us make more revenue than normal?

[00:08:42] And then you start to kind of recall and you're like, "Oh, we did this campaign and we did this thing, and, like, that brought in new clients." Like, great, let's do that again. Can we do it again? They're like, "Yes." Fantastic. Again, use what's already proven in your business to do more of what's working. Don't try to reinvent the wheel.

[00:08:59] And then looking at, okay, how did, did it improve? Or if it needs to improve, what are we doing about it? Are we coaching our therapists one-on-one to say, "Hey, let's improve your cancel rate by rebooking everyone before they leave the appointment. Let's make sure that if that doesn't happen, there's an admin following up the day after to make sure there's something on the books next week."

[00:09:17] Like, there's things we as business owners can do from the execution perspective, and this is what we explore with our owners on what is feasible, what, you know, capacity do you have to do that, who's gonna do the follow-up. If it's not the therapist or the admin, is it you?

[00:09:33] Kym: Yeah, yeah. Right. How else that could happen? So that kind of leads into that question then, how long do the numbers need to be consistent for you to be able to say, "Yes, I could hire an admin to actually follow up on these calls, because if I had somebody else doing this, I'd be able to do more clinical time or be able to step out of the business." Like, how do you decide that part of it?

[00:09:52] Carla: Yeah. It's based on goals, honestly, Kim. So, like, what are the owner's goals, right? Is the owner's goal to have more freedom of time and bandwidth in their life because that's what they need, and therefore we do wanna make room in the budget to hire these positions to take these things off their plate.

[00:10:08] And also, they're probably, like, a lower pay rate than you using your time are, and this is a good opportunity cost trade-off for you to consider. And maybe we don't bring someone full-time. We just bring them for five hours a week to help you do this follow-up piece. I think often we're not thinking about what is the business needs.

[00:10:28] We're always just trying to meet all the needs and rushing to the next thing because, you know, business moves, and you have to respond. But when we start to identify areas where we can hire help to free up our bandwidth, and maybe it's not putting more money in your pocket because maybe that is not the top priority.

[00:10:43] The top priority is to free up your time. That's when we're making a conscious decision to afford someone to come do this work for us so that we get the time back 'cause that's worth more to us right now in this stage of life than maybe making more profit is. And every client has different, you know, goals, and some are like, "No, let's maximize profit.

[00:11:03] Kym: Exactly.

[00:11:04] Carla: I'm gonna put in the time. I wanna have more profit." Great, then maybe they do the admin work, which is their choice. And we are here just to advise, to say, "Hey, is there an opportunity here to trade?" Because now you can see more clients instead, and maybe not as many. Maybe you only see two more, but now the admin is happening while you're in sessions.

[00:11:24] How awesome. And now that's, rebook rate is up, so cancellations are down, and this is good for the practice 'cause now we're making more money

[00:11:31] Kym: Yeah. And then I would imagine it goes the other way too, right? You, you start looking at the numbers, and it's like you cannot afford this, like, social media team that's, that you're paying $1,800 a month that's bringing in no leads. Like, how do you help with that part? And like, do, do you actively recommend like, "You need to fire them, and we need to think of a different strategy"?

[00:11:50] Or like, like, how do you help with that stuff? Like identifying, I guess, what would that be? Like, the downsides or, like, problems that you've got in your business. How do you, like, start to pick that stuff out and then, and like, how do you coach around that, I guess, is the question?

[00:12:05] Carla: So that's like the risk side of the business, right? When things are not working out and you're not getting the benefit for what you're paying for, and we do this often, it happens unfortunately, where we're looking at performance and we're not seeing it, and we need to make a different decision, we need to make a reduction in budget or a cut altogether, or a change of team if needed.

[00:12:23] Like in that case the example you were sharing, is we look at metrics. We say, okay, how well is the social media team performing? Is that bringing in calls, intakes? Is that ultimately leading to more business above and beyond your baseline revenue that you were doing before you hired this team, or not?

[00:12:42] And then the, then the question morphs into, okay, what else are they bringing in value? Maybe it's not directly correlated, but is it getting you in front of the, you know, right audience and just takes a little longer. Like, we also have to make sure we give it time to work. We don't just wanna hire a team and be like, "Okay, cut it two weeks later 'cause they didn't do anything."

[00:13:00] It's like, well, if you went into an investment thinking it was gonna pay off in two weeks, maybe don't start. But we do wanna value performance, we wanna get clarity of expectations with whoever we're hiring and trading dollars with to say, what can we expect by when, and then hold them accountable to that.

[00:13:17] Just no different than holding your clinicians accountable. You're holding your partners accountable to results. And if they're not bringing the results, then the conversation has to be like, what happened? What do we need to change in order to get results? Because we're not just quick to cut things, right?

[00:13:31] We wanna make sure we're working with them and figuring it out. And if they don't bring solutions to the table and they can't give you any kind of, you know, hope for what could be

[00:13:41] Kym: Yeah. Yeah, yeah

[00:13:43] Carla: in a couple months we might be like having a very different conversation where we're like, "This is not working.

[00:13:47] It's time to move on." And so that's where we help our clients kinda get into with, you know, their providers and their teams and such, is like that accountability piece, the follow through, the making sure results are happening. And sometimes understanding if it's not in their control, what's in their control that we can change to make sure those results are happening.

[00:14:07] But asking the questions is half the battle, honestly, Kim. Because my owners are so busy running around, they're not looking at every single line of spending and being like, "Hmm, am I getting the value from that one?" And so going through that expense audit with them and being like, "Okay, is this working, not working?

[00:14:22] Are we getting intakes up? Where were our intakes to start with? Did you benchmark before you hired this team?" Right? Again, data again, right? The data will tell us a lot of what's working or not working.

[00:14:33] Kym: I'm like the worst. You would hate me as a client. I'd be like, "I have no idea."

[00:14:37] Carla: It's okay. That's why we're here, right?

[00:14:39] Kym: yeah, I just make these, like, gut decisions, and then later I'm like, literally I have no... There's no tracking. You know, I, I've done that for a long time. Like, I'm much better now 'cause I have, like, a business manager that's helping me, like, get all that organized.

[00:14:51] But, but yeah, I mean, 'cause, 'cause things like social media and all that that you really can't track, I mean, I guess part of what you do is help, like, let's figure out how to actually track this stuff to see if it's working instead of just, like, this vague I'm just, like, paying all this money out for all these things kind of.

[00:15:08] Carla: Yeah.

[00:15:08] Kym: Yeah.

[00:15:09] Carla: we wanna make sure that we have some benefit to show for it. It might be visibility, it might be visits to the site. And, w- you know, we can decide what those metrics need to be that give us, like, the benefit we're looking for. But then there's other strategies we try, too. You know, more community outreach, more in-person type things that differentiate us from the competition.

[00:15:27] And in a world of AI, I feel like sometimes we also want to do business with other humans. So this could be a competitive advantage that other big companies might not be able to do or have if you can show up differently in your community and, like, you know, do the referral base, the marketing to the community directly could be an advantage.

[00:15:48] And how a lot of my practices still thrive through referrals despite what, you know, other practices might be doing, where they're relying on social media and that maybe is not working right now 'cause AI just threw a loop into the whole thing and people are trying to figure it out.

[00:16:02] Kym: Yeah

[00:16:03] Carla: have to fall back on what they know is true and works for them in the meantime.

[00:16:07] But we're always evaluating opportunities, investments trade-offs, and making sure that we bring that data layer to that gut decision feeling. 'Cause I think your gut serves you well. I'm not... I think a lot of business owners have done really well on their own with their gut instinct, right? But they hesitate, and that hesitation, the lack of confidence in moving forward with a decision 'cause they just don't know, is what we help them close the gap on by bringing that data to the conversation.

[00:16:36] Kym: That makes a lot of sense. So how do you help project and plan for future hires? Is there like

[00:16:42] Carla: Great question

[00:16:43] Kym: just how do you get that going, I guess? 'Cause you can't just ... You probably don't come in and you're like, "Oh, you've got $20 million sitting here that we can hire tons of people." I'm sure there's gotta be like, like we gotta cut some of this, we gotta cut a little of this, we gotta add some of this to get people ready. So I'm just curious, like, like how do you go about that process with somebody, with a practice or, or what? A solo practitioner?

[00:17:04] Carla: So there's a pr- some preparation that happens in anticipation of hiring, right? So you're probably feeling something like, "We have more leads than we have clinicians available to service." Okay, great problem to have. Still a problem 'cause now you got a wait list you gotta deal with and people who might choose your competition because you didn't get back to them fast enough and you don't have availability.

[00:17:25] So then the next question is, do we even have space to hire these people? 'Cause I often see people forget that you have to put the humans in the office, so like they need a space to be able to either share or have an office to have their sessions, right? Especially if it's in person. If it's telehealth, a lot easier 'cause you don't have that constraint on space.

[00:17:43] And then you wanna look at, do you have any cash runway? Because this is the one I see a lot of business owners hiring completely miss. They're like, "I'm gonna hire and I'm gonna make all this money from this clinician, so I'm gonna be just fine." The thing they forget is that there's a ramp-up period.

[00:18:00] There's a period where your clinician is just getting up to speed. You're probably paying hours for them to watch trainings, do onboarding, file their paperwork. they're not billable. You're still waiting for credentialing. If it's insurance,

[00:18:13] Kym: Oh

[00:18:14] Carla: to account for that time. And that costs money. It's real money out the door where you're not generating yet.

[00:18:21] Now, obviously by 30, 60, 90 days, your clinician's fully ramped and has a full caseload and now all of a sudden money is being made and it's fantastic. But if you cannot survive the first three months of that payroll, you just shot yourself in the foot and you're gonna struggle because you're gonna be paycheck to paycheck until that, you know, person is up.

[00:18:42] And what happens when the clinician doesn't perform the way you expected? 'Cause guess what? That also happens, and it's a bummer. in with the hopes that they'll be full-time, right? They're like, "I will do 20 to 25 sessions a week." Three months later, they're like, "I wanna be part-time." So this happens all the time, Kim, and I can't tell you how many times business owners who weren't ready to hire decided to move forward with taking that chance, which I think is fantastic that they're looking to grow their practice.

[00:19:11] But they need to be made aware of these areas of, you know, just risk that comes with hiring a new clinician. And so I always recommend you have a few months of payroll tucked away for this new position. Not your ongoing, you know, payroll for yourself or your rest of your team, but for this new position to make sure you're not stressed out about that ramp period and that, you know, if they work out fantastic, now you're making money off of it.

[00:19:36] There's a break-even point, and then there's the point where you start to make money, and this is adding to the bottom line, which is what we wanna see happen. But managing those critical performance metrics, especially when you're a traveling therapist, is becomes even more critical 'cause you're not even there to see if they showed up to the office to do sessions, if they sh- you know, are completing sessions unless you see it in a dashboard where it tells you they did this many sessions this week.

[00:20:02] And that's how you get to track performance remotely to make sure your practice is actually generating the results financially that you need to see in order for m- for it to be worth it to hire this person.

[00:20:13] Kym: Yeah, 'cause it's so easy, I'm sure, to just be like glance in the dashboard or whatever and be like, "Oh, looks like she saw 15 people last week." But then you really look at the numbers and it's like, actually no, like half were no-shows or like, I mean, yeah. Gosh, you gotta be so on top of that. Right.

[00:20:30] Carla: Yeah. And then what do you do when that happens is the next best thing- next question you can ask of your business to solve because, okay, 15 sessions, but five were no-shows. Now what? You have a conversation with that clinician, you coach them on best practices, you make sure the intake team knows they need to follow up with, you know, 10 more patients in order for them to be able to hit their goals.

[00:20:53] And, you know, depends on the type of therapist they are and, you know, the type of clients that they have. There might be a higher, you know, cancellation and lost client rate than you expect because of the type of therapy that they do, like couples, right? It's a really high turnover rate. And so just knowing that and calculating for that and knowing that you need to have that uncomfortable accountability conversation, which I know a lot of people hate.

[00:21:20] But this is what makes business performance happen, is having those difficult conversations. And you don't have to approach it as confrontational. You can just approach it as, "Here's a coaching opportunity. Let me help you grow your skills in retention, developing client treatment plans that help clients get results, that keep them coming for more support."

[00:21:42] And when you approach it from the clinicals, this is what's best for the client, right? Rather than that this is all about the money. I find that therapists respond a lot better because, like, they do want their patients to get better. They do want them to get the help they need. And when it's a clinical treatment plan conversation, they're very responsive to, "Oh, I understand why retention is important.

[00:22:04] It's because that helps the client make the progress needed at the rate that we need it in order for them to see results." So they're more responsive to it

[00:22:12] Kym: So you're a CFO, but also, I mean, it sounds like to me like a mentor too. That because you've done this with I don't even know how many practices you guys probably manage and help, you've probably been there and seen it all, and you know exactly how to handle a lot of these situations.

[00:22:26] Where, you know, as a therapist, g- director, clinical director, whatever, you know, over other therapists, you may not really have that business acumen. Like, well, I don't know. How do I... I don't know. This clinician's not performing. I have no idea what to do. And it sounds like you have a lot of experience with those situations already.

[00:22:43] Carla: We've seen a lot. And, you know, in the eight years in business, it's funny 'cause you just have been through it with clients and you're, like, trying to figure out what is the best course of action. And how do we also keep... Because yes, we do numbers for a living, but we also take the people side into perspective.

[00:23:00] We're like, we're dealing with a human being. Like, is there something that's happening in their personal life that's preventing them from performing? Do they need some grace? How long do they need accommodations for? Like, these are the kind of conversations we wanna have with the team to understand what's causing that because maybe it's out of character, right?

[00:23:17] Sometimes we have high performers, all of a sudden they're not performing. You're like, "What happened?" And so we can have that human conversation and really understand, okay, maybe you need to go part-time temporarily, and we wanna accommodate that, or... And we can afford to, right? And so that's something we can do if we know what's going on, but if they're just, like, not performing and not talking to us, it's really hard for us to help them.

[00:23:39] And so financially, there's things we can do to help, you know, navigate that period of time. It often is just a short period of time. It's not long-term. And if it's long-term, then you should be considering other longer term solutions and options. So this is where I think working with our clients and kind of asking the questions, 'cause we don't have all the answers, Kim.

[00:24:00] We might have gone through a lot. We kinda know our way around 'cause we've seen a lot.

[00:24:04] Kym: I guess, right? Every

[00:24:05] Carla: you...

[00:24:06] Kym: is different. Yeah

[00:24:07] Carla: And you as the owner know your people best, right? So we rely heavily on that, on like what's the best way that they'll respond if we go this direction versus that direction, and the owner becomes the expert in that.

[00:24:17] We're just here to facilitate asking the right questions and really help them navigate the financial aspect of it with the human lens as part of it, as part of the consideration, and then ultimately saying, like, "By the way, if you don't wanna have that conversation and you don't wanna fix this issue, it's your choice, owner.

[00:24:35] Here's what it means financially for an impact." And so then they're like, "Oh, okay. I'm okay with it," or, "I need to go have that conversation today."

[00:24:44] Kym: Yeah, that's pretty

[00:24:45] Carla: up to them.

[00:24:46] Kym: to say, "That's fine if you don't want to, but it's probably gonna cost you about 

[00:24:51] Carla: like, those are choices, right? And we leave our owners to have complete 100% choice on what they wanna do and how they wanna go about things. It's our job to inform them of what that would do to their business from a financial perspective so they can then take that into consideration and decide, yes, this is a fight worth having or a battle worth having or not, because I'm okay with that impact financially is not as much, and it's okay, and I can afford to take it, and I'm gonna, you know, not deal with this for another month.

[00:25:23] Fine. We all go in knowing exactly what to expect. There's no surprises. And then when the financial results show up at the end of the month and you're like, "Ooh," we can be like, "Well, remember, we made this decision not to deal with the situation right now. Are you ready to deal with it now?" And they're like, "Maybe." And that's okay. It's their business. It's their choice. We're just here to inform them.

[00:25:43] Kym: Yeah, and here's the numbers. Yeah, that's great. Amazing. So how does somebody work with you? Like, what are, what are the options to work with you and your company?

[00:25:53] Carla: Yeah, so we like to keep it flexible here because I think every practice has different needs, and we service them on both a one project time basis as well as monthly ongoing retainers. So if a practice is, like, looking to, you know, get a taste of what it's like to work with a CFO, they do not have to make an ongoing one-year contract commitment with us.

[00:26:14] We love that because it allows them to get an idea of what it's like to work with a CFO. Our team is super experienced, so they can get into the nitty-gritty, answer the questions, deliver on the scope that we agreed to on the project, and then decide if they wanna continue to work with us, which, you know, tends to lead to some clients converting to monthly ongoing, and some choose to just take the plan and go work it themselves, which we love, too.

[00:26:36] We just wanna meet the needs of our clients where they're at. We wanna meet their budgets as well. That's very important for us

[00:26:44] Kym: say, you might get in there and they're like, "Why? You can't even hire us, so I don't know what you want."

[00:26:49] Carla: And we will tell them flat out, Kim, because we think it's our job to do right by our clients and make sure we're not putting them in a worse financial position than where they started working with us.

[00:26:58] We're supposed to improve their finances, not make them worse. And so we will tell them, they'll be like, "I wanna work with you." And we're like, "Ooh, we can't yet afford it, but here's what I want you to do in order to come back and afford it at a later time." And so we solve for goals they need to hit, milestones in order for them to be able to afford to bring us on as part of the team, and we're very budget conscious in that way 'cause we don't want them to stretch themselves and then not, you know, and be stressed out and not pay themselves.

[00:27:24] Like, that's not our job to bring that kind of stress to their company. It's really to help them solve for their financial. And then sometimes we have shorter-term packages we use to just help solve certain issues in a period of time, and then take a break and come back at a later time. And so we have ways that clients can work with us that do not break the bank and meet their needs and help get this in order, like the financial side in order, where they can then navigate that on their own or continue to work with us as they choose to, and it makes sense financially to do so. We obviously invite that as well.

[00:27:59] Kym: That's amazing, yes. And, and where do you live on the web? Where is Wealth and Worth Within on the internet?

[00:28:05] Carla: Yeah, so you can find us on all socials at Wealth Worth Within, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, YouTube. We also have a podcast if you like listening to podcasts. Uh, This could be a good one to check out if you wanna improve your financial acumen on your business finances. That is called the CEO Financial Clarity Corner.

[00:28:25] I do episodes every other week just sharing all the educational content you never got on running a business from a financial perspective. And you can check out our website if you're ready to hire a CFO or interested in bookkeeping services. You can find us at wealthworthwithin.com

[00:28:42] Kym: Amazing. Thank you for taking the time today. It really explains the process a lot, and also I hope is kind of a wake-up call for people listening, like you gotta get your numbers in check so you can make good decisions about your business.

[00:28:55] Carla: I love that 'cause numbers don't have to be scary because once you understand them and know how to manage them, they can be really fun and enjoyable. Like, who doesn't like to make money? I like to make money and an impact. Like, I like to do both, so we wanna help our clients do the same

[00:29:10] Kym: Yeah, no kidding. I love when my, business manager now is, like, keeping track of that stuff for me, and it's like, " Oh, we, we did? We made that m- we made money off that ? Oh my gosh." I h- 'cause my mind is always like, that wasn't good, or like, I always go to the negative for some reason. Like, "Oh, that wasn't a big enough launch," or whatever.

[00:29:26] But to see it out like that, it just really does help a lot to say, "Okay, we are moving in the right direction." It's like, takes the, the stress level off, for sure

[00:29:34] Carla: And it gives you some clarity that you didn't have before, and that's really the magic of numbers is I know if you're scared to look at them, maybe it's better than you think.

[00:29:43] Kym: Yeah. Hopefully, right? Well, thanks so much for taking the time today

[00:29:47] Carla: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was lovely

What Therapists Need to Know About Mandated Reporting with Michelle Burlin

Figuring out which state's rules apply to your client can feel like a moving target, especially once you're crossing state lines. In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, I sit down with Michelle Burlin, a therapist and attorney who spent months combing through every state and territory's reporting laws so the rest of us don't have to.

She's been practicing for 26 years, mainly in the forensic realm, licensed in Oregon and Alaska. Along the way she went to law school and now runs a forensic private practice where she does risk assessments, expert witness work, and trainings for clinicians. She breaks down what mandated reporting actually requires state by state, what changes when you're doing telehealth across state lines, and why she says to always err on the side of caution.

In This Episode, We Explore…

• Why treating sex addiction is its own specialty, separate from other addictions.
• The three categories that show up again and again across state reporting laws.
• What "reasonable cause" actually means when you're the one deciding to report.
• Why the client's location, not yours, determines which state's rules apply.
• How age of consent differences between states complicate telehealth mandated reporting.

Connect with Michelle Burlin:
Website: https://veritasconsultingservices.com/ | https://mbhglobalenterprise.org/
Book - A Clinician's Guide to Mandated Reporting: https://a.co/d/00W9SVEf

Connect with me:

Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab

Subscribe to the Podcast:

Apple iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcast | Stitcher | Amazon | Castbox

______________________________

Sponsored by Berries:  Say goodbye to the burden of mental health notes with automated note and treatment plan creation! https://heyberries.com/therapists

Sponsored by Alma: Managing a private practice can be challenging. There are obstacles at every turn — from navigating the credentialing process, to managing finances, to finding new clients. That’s where Alma can help. Alma is on a mission to simplify access to mental health care by focusing first and foremost on supporting clinicians. https://helloalma.com/kym

______________________________

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Kym: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist podcast. So I usually always start out and say, "How'd you go from being a typical therapist to a traveling therapist?"

[00:00:09] So today, we have a therapist here with us. She's actually got an amazing background, so I wanna talk about that. She's not exactly a traveler, but we did think that her topic would be helpful to traveling therapists, so that's why I wanted to invite Michelle Berlin here with us today.

[00:00:24] Michelle, thanks for being here. Usually, I always start with that question, and people just kinda start to tell their story. But maybe you could just introduce yourself a little bit, your education, 'cause you're not just a therapist. I mean, you've got all this amazing stuff going on, so we could talk about that a little bit, and then sorta your specialty and how we could help potential traveling therapists

[00:00:44] Michelle: Fabulous. Thank you, Kim, so much for allowing me to be on this podcast. I'm super excited. Although I myself am not a traveling therapist, I am licensed in multiple states. Although what I really wanted to impart to this group and this podcast is my book that I just published that I think will really be beneficial to traveling therapists.

[00:01:07] And it-- what it does is it delineates each state and jurisdiction's mandated reporting standards. So if you are a traveling therapist and you travel or practice telehealth through state lines you do know the state-specific mandated reporting standards because I think that's important to protect your license

[00:01:29] Kym: Yes. And tell everybody, so you're not just a therapist, right? I mean, tell everybody, like, your educational background a little bit, 'cause

[00:01:35] Michelle: Oh, sorry.

[00:01:36] Kym: wrote a book about mand- Yeah. she's a little more qualified

[00:01:39] Michelle: just jumped right in.

[00:01:40] Kym: book about this. could you share that part? 'Cause I think that's so interesting, everything you've done.

[00:01:44] Michelle: Absolutely. Sorry, I just jumped right in there. Um, I've been practicing for 26 years um, mainly in the forensic realm. I practice in Arizona, Florida, and Alaska. I took, I, I call a break in air quotes because law school is not a break, but I went to law school, graduated, and but I did miss the personalization of therapy and treating the individual.

[00:02:10] So I opened a forensic private practice, and here I am. I do a lot of therapy um, sex addiction. I do risk assessments and also expert witness and trainings and consultations. So,

[00:02:25] Kym: That's amazing to me. So, so okay, I just want to under- so you were a therapist first, and then what made you decide like, "Oh, wait, I think I'll go to law school"? Like, how did you, how did you do

[00:02:35] Michelle: Yeah.

[00:02:35] Kym: It's so interesting to me.

[00:02:37] Michelle: Yeah. You know, I was working, again, in the forensic realm. And I, I would testify in court a lot, and I just really enjoyed it. And I was like, "You know what? this could be interesting." And I anticipated practicing law.

[00:02:54] And while I think it's interesting and super valuable, like I said, Kim, I, I miss that personal- personalization and seeing the progress of the individual heal core wounds. And so I decided, "Okay, how can I combine the best of both worlds?" And so now here I am. Yeah.

[00:03:14] Kym: So you, got the law degree, but you're still practicing mainly as a therapist, but you're doing the the evaluations, which is really cool 'cause then you've got that legal perspective already. Yeah, like on top of just being a, a clinician that's doing assessments. Wow.

[00:03:27] Michelle: Yes, I, no, I really enjoy it

[00:03:29] Kym: that's amazing. So I wanna talk about your book and everything, but also you know, before we hit record, I was talking to Michelle, 'cause with this podcast I always try to, like figure out an angle, right? Like, we're the Traveling Therapists, like, how can we help the traveling therapists be more successful?

[00:03:42] So the court assessment piece, like, I'm super curious about that. are they usually like clients that come to you and, like, you're, and they, they need an assessment, but then they continue to see you for therapy? Or are you like doing one-off assessments as a business, if that...

[00:03:58] Like, like peop- like people out there in the world know that you do these asse- like lawyers maybe know that you do these assessments. They send people to you, you do the assessment, you go to court, and then you're done with the client. Like, I'm curious how that works because it seems like traveling therapists, like they were doing assessments and licensed in like five states, right?

[00:04:13] They could just like travel around, maybe go do a court appearance, live in that state for a while. Like, I don't know. It just seems like a interesting take on this, this thing, you know?

[00:04:21] Michelle: Yeah. A- as long as you're licensed in the state, you can practice, and that includes assessments. So with that being said, yeah, trav- traveling therapists can absolutely do assessments. I do get my referrals mainly from attorneys or probation officers. So the court or probation calls me or emails me, asks me to do a sexual risk assessment or, or a threat analysis assessment.

[00:04:50] Those are my two assessments I typically do. And then I do them, and yeah, write up the report

[00:04:57] Kym: That's amazing. Did you, did you do these assessments before you became a lawyer, or did they come along after when you were like, you know, "Maybe I'll just start doing this, these, these full assessments"? Or was that, were you just already doing that and then you thought you'd become a lawyer too?

[00:05:13] Michelle: Yeah, no I mean, you don't have to have a law degree to do assessments. I know pl- actually I'm the only one I know with a law degree doing assessments. So, absolutely, cli- clinicians do assessments all the time. And depending on your state laws, and this is where, you know, if you travel or practice in multiple states, you do have to look at the state specific statutes too, to see, with your degree, what assessments you are able to do and what you're not able to do

[00:05:43] Kym: Yeah. That's so interesting. Maybe we could talk about that, 'cause that starts to dive into your book and what your book's about and all that. So how does one even find that out? Like, I'm an LCSW licensed in Virginia, right? I'm just curious. And I don't know if your book gets into that part of it.

[00:05:59] Yours is more mandor- man- mandatory reporting stuff, right? Okay. So I don't know how much detail you know about that, but, like, how would I figure that out? Like, what kind of assessments can I do? 'Cause, like, when I think assessment, I think psychologist, right? And not therapist. So I don't know.

[00:06:14] Michelle: Right.

[00:06:14] Kym: curious about that.

[00:06:15] Mm.

[00:06:16] Michelle: Yeah, no, and most people do. What I, what I would tell people is, you know, one of two pathways. Number one, you could just call your board directly from the state that you're, that you want to do the assessment in. So like Oregon, call the Oregon Board LPC social workers, psychologists.

[00:06:33] They will know or, and/or they will direct you to the state specific statute that delineates, yes, psychologists can only do, you know, duty or fitness to duty assessments or competency assessments. But, but plenty of clinicians, LPCs, licensed social workers can do plenty of assessments too. Yeah. Like mental health, integrated assessments.

[00:06:59] Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:07:00] Kym: Yeah, it's so interesting, 'cause I see that come up in the group, the Traveling Therapists Face groups, Facebook group sometimes. Somebody will say, "Well, are you guys doing like immigration assessments? Could I do that abroad and just specialize in that?" So I always wonder about that.

[00:07:11] It seems like it'd be a good, like income stream for therapists, 'cause you don't have to follow the client after that, right? You just do the assessment and the report, and then you're done. Okay.

[00:07:21] Michelle: you're done. You're done with that service. And then depending on your recommendations, yeah, the probation officer, the attorney takes it from there

[00:07:32] Kym: Wow. And d- for you, I guess, it, does it always include like, "And we want you to show up in court and, you know, support your findings," like that kind of thing?

[00:07:42] Michelle: Typically, I mean, it can. The report is used in court and, and i- if you're deemed an expert witness, then absolutely you could testify. Or, you know, as an expert witness, you can also write your report and not testify as well. But yeah, absolutely they use it in court proceedings all the time.

[00:08:02] Kym: Oh my gosh. And you guys, before I hit record, Michelle was telling me about this, and I'm like, "That is my ultimate nightmare," to be called to court, to be called to court as an expert witness. I told her I would probably cry for, like, two weeks before I even had to go, and she was like, "I love it." She was like, "I was in there yesterday.

[00:08:22] I love it." I just think i- i- it takes a special person, like, just I think it's amazing that, that you love that and you're doing that. I really

[00:08:30] Michelle: Yeah, well, thank you. I actually do, you know, and I'm shamelessly gonna plug this into you, Kim. I hope that's okay. I, I have and I'm an approved NBCC provider, so I can give out continuing education credits, and one of my courses is a four-hour course in how to become a successful courtroom witness for fact and expert witnesses.

[00:08:55] So, yeah. A- and that's not state specific, so if you're interested in that or anyone's interested in that, they're more than welcome to contact me. Yeah. And so I have

[00:09:06] Kym: You've gotta give me the... I don't know if I have the link. You've gotta give me the link to that so I can put that in the show

[00:09:10] Michelle: Okay. Yeah, and it's just on my website, but I'll, I'll, I'll give that to you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah

[00:09:18] Kym: all of this history and everything you're doing, it, I'm assuming is what kinda led to the need for this book that you wrote, right?

[00:09:25] Because I guess you have to know this stuff for what you're doing, so maybe we can talk about that.

[00:09:30] Michelle: Yeah. Yeah, sure. And actually, this book, I was actually working on another book for years. That's embarrassing,

[00:09:38] Kym: Oh.

[00:09:39] Michelle: but I haven't published it yet. It's on for clinicians how to treat sex addiction. I was doing a mandated reporting, just a one-hour quick lunch, you know, lunch and coffee kind of training.

[00:09:50] Just come in for an hour and then leave. And during that training there was so much interest and questions that I'm like, you know what? I should publish something that, that delineates a- and actually combines all of the US states and territories' mandated reporting laws into one comprehensive reference.

[00:10:10] And it just started from there, and I completed it within three months, and here we are now. But I think it's, I think it's really useful because now, you know, psychologists are part of the PsychPact. And social workers, at least in Alaska, they're just part of the Social Work Pact now. And I think to protect your license and for risk mitigation, it's super important to know each jurisdiction's mandated reporting standards so you could read and interpret statutory language which I know is not fun for everyone.

[00:10:44] It's fun for me.

[00:10:46] Kym: Well,

[00:10:46] Michelle: But

[00:10:47] Kym: it's amazing. Yeah, like I've got a, a friend, Dr. Lisa Lovely, she's got a group practice. I mean, I think she's got clinicians in 47 states or something like that. Like, like could you ima- I mean, I, well, I'm sure you can imagine, but like a group practice owner, multi-state group practice owner would really benefit from something like this, like a very clear-cut, like here's what you do in each state.

[00:11:11] Wow.

[00:11:12] Michelle: And actually, and with that being said, I actually last... Was it last week? I think it was last, yeah, last Wednesday, I gave a group consultation. I was invited to talk to a group practice that does have clients come because they're private pay, so they come for a specialized intensive, week-long intensive from all states.

[00:11:33] And so I did a consultation on my book. They purchased copies, but also I explained statutory language and how to interpret the standards. So yeah, that was fun. Yeah, I guess they had, they have clients from all states too, so yeah, that

[00:11:50] Kym: So tell us, I'm a, I, I'm a little rusty with, I have like three therapy clie- well I a- actually two now, two therapy clients, you know, and there, there's no situations with them I can think of that maybe a mandatory report would need, be needed. So like what, what are things you would do a report on that you'd have to report?

[00:12:08] And, and like maybe is it consistent for all states? I don't even know. I'm, I'm assuming, but I don't know.

[00:12:13] Michelle: Yeah. Well, I mean, the language is different, the standards of care are different, which I'll get into. But there are s- there are similar, I don't wanna s- themes, for lack of a better word, but categories. Number one, of course, is child welfare. Number two is vulnerable or incapacitated or dependent adults, different states call it you know, term it different terms.

[00:12:37] And number three is duty to warn and protect. And it is different for every state. And so there are a couple different mandated reporting standards that often people see in the language, and one of those is reasonable cause s- reasonable cause. Another one is reasonable suspicion or reason to suspect, or reason to believe.

[00:13:01] So, f- perhaps a statute will say, "If you have reasonable cause to believe a child is at harm," or, "If you have, you know, reason to believe ch- a child is at harm." And I think those are important. In my book, I highlight those in red to clearly illustrate that these are the standards of care. And people often say, "Well, Michelle, what does that mean?"

[00:13:25] What does a reasonable cause, how do you know i- if you have or meet that reasonable cause to make a report? And I say the standard of that is to ask yourself, "Okay, what would a, a clinician do i- with similar experience, education, training, background as I?" And that's the reasonable cause. So, standards are different, Kim, for, like, an intern with limited experience or a 20-year seasoned clinician because that's the standard of reasonableness.

[00:14:01] And a per- with a person similar to my experience, what would they do? And that's the standard. Yeah

[00:14:08] Kym: Interesting. So there's a difference with an intern versus a seasoned clinician? Wow. 

[00:14:14] Michelle: somewhat. I mean, I-- Yeah. Well, well, I think the standard of reasonableness is the same, but that's where I think it's important always, whether you're seasoned or like an intern, to consult with either your supervisor or other clinicians. If you have any doubt at if this should be reported or not, I always say err on the side of caution because it's not our job to investigate or substantiate.

[00:14:43] It, it's our job to report and let OCS or CPS or whatever the relevant agency is, or law enforcement, to make that determination

[00:14:55] Kym: Wow. Yeah, that's so interesting. So, yeah, I just have a lot of questions about it. So, 'cause I've, I, I don't know. I mean, I feel like maybe most of us are up to date in the beginning on our license and, like, what the standard is, but maybe if you don't deal with, with situations like that as much. W- and I always struggle with that as a clinician.

[00:15:09] Not that type of stuff, but just like a mom maybe talks about being too strict or, you know, maybe s- y- you know, I always struggle with that. Like, what is the standard there? So just curious I guess what you said, right? Err on the side of caution. I guess that would just be the thing to do always, just err on the side of caution.

[00:15:26] Yeah. Mm-hmm

[00:15:27] Michelle: and that's what I do, and that's what... Because I s- many people come to my trainings, and they're like, "Well, what about this scenario, or what about this scenario?" And I say, "Okay. Well, look at the statute. Look at the language in the statute, and if you believe or are- have any reasonable you know, reasonable suspicion or cause to make that call, just make the call.

[00:15:51] If it's unsubstantiated, then the- then it- it's, it ends there. But it's not our call to make. So again, if we have any doubt, let's just say for vulnerable adults, people are like, "Okay. Well, Michelle, well, what's a vulnerable adult, or, or what's the definition of a dependent adult?" And, you know, I say, "Oh, well, this is where statutory language just comes in handy because it, it, many many if not all states as I did my research, I- I, you know, it was interesting to see different jurisdictions label things differently and define things differently, but many of them have a statute where the definition is in the statute, and I, I referenced that in my book, too.

[00:16:36] So dependent adult, this is the definition of a vulnerable adult or a dependent adult. So we don't have to make that judgment call. It's written in the statute, and like you said, if you have any inclination or suspicion, yeah, just make the report f- and, yeah, let the rest kinda follow. Yeah

[00:16:59] Kym: Yeah, where it goes. So how often do statutes change? I mean, like, one, I'm thinking logistically, like, you just wrote this book. Like, are, are, are you gonna have to keep it updated? 'Cause oh my gosh, and I just don't know, I don't know how often that stuff changes. Or is it pretty much like it's been the same for, like, 20 years in the state, like, kind of thing?

[00:17:17] I'm just curious about that.

[00:17:19] Michelle: Yeah, no, great question. Be- and I did, you know, just, just I put the 26 edition statutes because there might be some changes. Typically, I mean, it takes a lot to th- change or, or add or modify statutory language, so it's not like a yearly thing. But it does happen. And so I wanted, I wanted to note that and maybe make some edits in the book you know, as years come to follow, if there are any changes.

[00:17:49] If there's not, then yeah, it's the same

[00:17:53] Kym: Yeah. Wow. So, it, do you have... Okay, I just, this is probably totally off the cuff, and if you don't, that's fine. But I just wonder, like, since you've looked at all these different states, are there some states where you're like, "What?" Like, "I can't believe this is, this is the statute"? I would love to just, I mean, just this is totally just me being geeky about it, but is, is there, like, one you could share or something that is like, you just couldn't believe it?

[00:18:16] Michelle: Oh, y- you know, yes, I can't remember the certain states because it was a couple months ago, but I remember it because I, I did research, you know, of course, all the states, and then I had to organize it so I researched it again.

[00:18:31] Kym: Yeah, yeah

[00:18:33] Michelle: in some states, I can't really remember, Kim, the specific states, but there were two.

[00:18:38] I was like, "This language is really obtuse." I'm like, "I don't understand what they're doing." And then some states are very streamlined and organized. It... and I can't remember which states were which. But yes, some states in my opinion, have better written statutes than other, than other states. More well-written and defined statutes than other states, and that's where I think either a consultation or asking your board or trainings come in handy because it's really about protecting your license at the end of the day.

[00:19:13] I always, no matter what I do for my clients or risk assessments, I am always like, okay, whenever I write down in a risk assessment or, or in therapy or mandated reporting, I'm like, "How can I defend this in court?" If I have to go to court on this, how am I going to be able to support my decision to call, like a mandated reporting call, or not to call?

[00:19:37] How will I support my decision? And I go from there. Yeah.

[00:19:42] Kym: So smart, yeah. if, if a clinician is sitting with this struggle and they read the statute and it's one of those states that's super obtuse, right? And w- who, who do you get consults from? Like, I mean, obviously you would probably be, I don't know if you do that, but maybe a good person since you've got the legal and the therapeutic background.

[00:20:02] So somebody like you or is there like, like do you call your liability insurance and talk to the legal department there? Like, what do you do? I'm just curious

[00:20:11] Michelle: Yeah, no, all of the above. No. And I, I, I absolutely do consultations individual and for group practices for all states. Your liability insurance, absolutely. There, there's a legal team there. Your board, your state board. So there's multiple sources to go to. And if not one, more than one. Yeah.

[00:20:34] Yeah, because like I said, I, I've-

[00:20:36] Kym: first? Mm-hmm

[00:20:38] Michelle: Um, yeah. Well, I would you know, your board or the malpractice, your malpractice insurance, I think is key. A- and then you could, of course... I think consul- consultation is super important in, in practice and just to get different perspectives and just maybe shed some more insight that you don't think about.

[00:21:01] But yeah, absolutely that's secondary, I think, to talking to your board and your malpractice insurance. Absolutely

[00:21:10] Kym: Interesting. Now, this might be a dumb question. I don't know. I'm thinking it in my head. I, I... When I'm saying it out loud, it might not... It might be dumb. But so does, does the age of consent matter in... Like, isn't the age of consent different in different states, and would that have anything to do with the mandor- mandatory reporting?

[00:21:27] Like, you know, I just wonder how that, that's all connected.

[00:21:31] Michelle: Yeah, no, excuse me. The-- yeah, no, that's a great question because age of consent is fairly different in states. Some states it's sixteen, some states it's eighteen. And yes, it can absolutely affect mandated reporting because what is, what is inappropriate behavior or illegal, I should say illegal behavior with a c- a minor?

[00:21:53] Do they have the ability to have consent in that state? Now, where it gets interesting too is if you are practicing, like if you're a traveling therapist and you're practicing across state lines doing telehealth, what state do you reference the age of consent, right? So if your state is eighteen, but your client's living in a state where consent is sixteen, what, what's the age of consent?

[00:22:21] And so that's becoming a newly y- you know, concern that I hear a lot too in my trainings. "Well, well, Michelle, w- you know, which state do I go off of?" And the answer i- is, is where the state where the client is located. I would also report to my board, like w- with the state where I'm physically located in.

[00:22:44] They're probably gonna direct me to, to the other state of the client because they have jurisdiction and, and the board. So if I'm in Alaska, and I'm seeing a client, let's say in Oregon and there's different statutory requirements, I may contact my board. They may just refer me to the Oregon OCS or law enforcement anyway.

[00:23:07] So but you must contact where your client is because that has jurisdictional agency over, over the, the laws. Yeah

[00:23:17] Kym: That's so interesting. Gosh. Yeah, 'cause my I mentioned Dr. Lisa Lovelace, but she and I did a course together that's multi-state the nitty-gritty of multi-state expansion, and we have a module kind of in there. We don't have all the states or anything like that, but this definitely is a nuance that comes up, 'cause a lot of people will say, "Is it worth it to get licensed in multiple states?"

[00:23:36] And it's like these are the things people don't think about, know, when, when they're doing that. Like w- you know every state is different, so you're gonna have to be up on all of that and paying attention to it. So your resource is fantastic for that.

[00:23:49] Michelle: Oh, thank you. Yeah, and, and I think now especially with the, the compacts going on and, you know, telehealth, like you said, for group practices just maintaining liability over their clinicians. Are there clinicians that they're employing participating or ethically responsible in the state's l- yeah, in the state laws.

[00:24:12] So that-

[00:24:14] Kym: the compact... Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. What were you

[00:24:16] Michelle: no. Go ahead.

[00:24:17] Kym: I was just gonna say, so even with the compacts, it, it probably still follows the same logic, right? Is wherever the client's sitting at the time when,

[00:24:25] Michelle: Sure

[00:24:25] Kym: when you realize that there is an issue, that's what- where you would go first to that state statute.

[00:24:30] Yeah, that makes sense. Okay.

[00:24:32] Michelle: Sure. And, but you have to abide by your board and your state too. So, and that's where knowing your specific state does it, does it clearly expressly state to contact them as well. And every state's different. As I was doing research and write, writing the book, it was very interesting how similar but yet dissimilar states are in their requirements.

[00:24:58] And that's why I think this is so useful, and I, I'm so excited to help others protect their license because I've seen people get in trouble for not making mandated reports when they should have. And that's why I think it's so important that you in your informed consent, I know you don't see many clients, but like a, a, a

[00:25:22] Kym: A normal therapist, yeah, yeah.

[00:25:24] Michelle: a normal therapist cl- clearly states in their informed consent documents about mandated reporting, reference their state's jurisdictions, and maybe if they are doing telehealth and the client's in another state, to add that in.

[00:25:41] But I think it's important to start there so the client knows exactly the boundaries, what you will report, what you won't report. That takes emotion out of it, and this is just, I'm obligated, and this is what I need to do

[00:25:57] Kym: Yeah, yeah. So interesting. Oh my goodness.

[00:26:01] Michelle: Yeah.

[00:26:02] Kym: wow. So okay, so where do people, like, find you and your book, and if they want you to come speak? You know, just where do they go?

[00:26:10] Michelle: Oh, thank you. Yeah, so my website primarily. I am listed on Psychology Today but my website... Should I give the website address for that? Oh, okay.

[00:26:22] Kym: Thank

[00:26:23] Michelle: Yeah, sure. So it's Veritas, so V-E-R-I-T-A-S consultingservices.com. And there you can find my trainings, my consultation, my book. My book's available on Amazon under my name.

[00:26:39] And yeah, like I said, I do trainings and consultations. I do trainings in, yeah, mandated, mandated reporting how to become a successful witness if you have anxieties in the courtroom, whi- which I think that's my most popular training so far.

[00:26:57] Kym: I bet.

[00:26:59] Michelle: And then also sexual addiction how to treat clients with sexual addiction because I think that's I think that's important.

[00:27:07] I think a lot of people maybe treat clients with sexual addiction for like substance abuse or other addictions, and it's not. It's a specialty. So I do trainings, and all of these pages are, are on my website too. Yeah

[00:27:22] Kym: so interesting. So this is, I know we're kind of wrapping it up, but, but I just wonder about with the, with the sex assessments and stuff, what are... I mean, have you had, like, different types of mandated reporting come up when you're doing those assessments? 'Cause I guess, I don't know, are you doing them for, like, like a lawyer, like a defense attorney or, like, a prosecutor?

[00:27:40] Like, I'm just curious about, like, like who's, who's your, you know, customer, I guess, curious about?

[00:27:47] Michelle: Excuse me. No, I, I do. Well, to answer your question, I have. Yes, I have made a- made mandated reporting calls. And even if... oh, this is, this is a fantastic area because clearly the mandated reporting call has been made for me to review the collateral information that with maybe abuse or sexual abuse or neglect.

[00:28:11] I still make that report because in my statute, in my state, it doesn't delineate an age or a timeframe. It doesn't say if it's already been reported, don't report. So even though I know it's been reported, I always make that report and document that I made it, even though I know, you know, the investigation's already happened.

[00:28:30] And so yes, I have made reports, and yes, I frequently do them for, like I said, either the prosecution or office of public advocacy or juvenile probation. Yeah. Different sources. Yeah.

[00:28:44] Kym: So it didn't even occur to me that you might be getting the referral after the mandatory reporting has already happened. That makes a lot of sense. Oh, I see. Always.

[00:28:54] Michelle: I mean, unless they disclose something new, which I also have made reports. That's doesn't happen very frequently. But if it, yeah, if they said something concerning or add on behaviors yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[00:29:12] Kym: Wow. That's so interesting. Oh my gosh. So are they mo- so I guess, are there mandated report, or are there coming to you after a report well, I'm assuming. I mean, I guess not all reports are true, but I guess they, are they're, they considered, like, sex offenders in most cases that you're doing the assessments on?

[00:29:26] Or 'cause when I thought sex addiction, I don't know, I thought about a husband and wife, and the husband's cheating or something. But I didn't even consider it like, you're probably getting it from more of a criminal perspective, I guess.

[00:29:37] Michelle: yeah, and I think, yeah... No, no, no, I think it's important because, yes. So in my practice I do see, like, the general public for sex addiction that's non-offenders um, people, you know, dealing with pornography addictions or compulsive sexual behaviors, even, not even behaviors, urges. A- and maybe they are able to manage it.

[00:30:00] So that's one piece of my practice in non-offenders. My assessments mainly in the criminal and civil court but yes, they, they are in trouble with the law. Their behaviors have been, gotten them in trouble, so sexual problematic behaviors or like I said, threat, threat assessments. Yeah.

[00:30:20] Yeah.

[00:30:21] Kym: amazing. Oh my gosh. Are you ever scared? Are you doing them in the office with, with people? I don't know, I feel like

[00:30:28] Michelle: Yeah, I do. I, I do. No, I, I just... You know, I, I've worked in jails and prisons and, and violent

[00:30:35] Kym: like, "Whatever."

[00:30:36] Michelle: Yeah. No, it, it, it's, I'm, I'm comfortable. I'm always on guard, not on edge, but on guard. I mean, take precautions. And yeah, like, that's where I situate the room. I don't know if you see my chair is closer to the door than the couch that they sit on.

[00:30:51] But no, I enjoy the work. I, I enjoy, Yeah, I, I do. I really enjoy it. Yeah.

[00:30:57] Kym: interesting. Oh my gosh. That's a really neat, neat niche that you've got, so that's, that's very cool.

[00:31:02] Michelle: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you

[00:31:03] Kym: thanks for sharing and letting me pick your brain and all that good stuff and I appreciate you being here. And yeah, if anybody wants to learn from Michelle, everything will be in the show notes, and thanks a lot. I really appreciate it

[00:31:15] Michelle: Great. Oh, awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate this, and it was so much fun. So thank you.

[00:31:22] Kym: you. 

Building a Life You Don't Need a Vacation From with Jennie Blackwood

If you've ever wondered what it actually takes to start building a life you don't need a vacation from, this episode is going to give you the real, unfiltered version. In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, I sit down with Jennie Blackwood, who went from barely covering her bills in a corporate marketing job to running a seven-figure business built on multiple income streams.

Jennie walks us through the moment that changed everything, the leap she took when her family's income disappeared almost overnight, and how she's structured her business so it actually supports the life she wants instead of running her into the ground. We also get into the mindset work it took to keep going when things got hard, and what building a life you don't need a vacation from really looks like day to day.

In This Episode, We Explore…

• The middle-of-the-night idea that turned into a business almost overnight.
• The moment she realized she was doing all the work and keeping almost none of the money.
• Why she built a team around her instead of staying the face of the business.
• How one course led to a coaching program with 300+ women in eighteen months.
• The human design concept she uses to work just three days a week.

Connect with Jennie Blackwood:
Website: https://www.jennieblackwood.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/socialgraze.charcuterie/
https://www.instagram.com/girlwhynotyou_ 

Connect with me:

Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab

Subscribe to the Podcast:

Apple iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcast | Stitcher | Amazon | Castbox

______________________________

Sponsored by Berries:  Say goodbye to the burden of mental health notes with automated note and treatment plan creation! https://heyberries.com/therapists

Sponsored by Alma: Managing a private practice can be challenging. There are obstacles at every turn — from navigating the credentialing process, to managing finances, to finding new clients. That’s where Alma can help. Alma is on a mission to simplify access to mental health care by focusing first and foremost on supporting clinicians. https://helloalma.com/kym

______________________________

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Kym: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist podcast. Now, you guys know I don't always have a therapist on. Sometimes I just have, like, super inspirational people that I just can't wait to learn more about that have really cool stories that I think will also help you guys. So today, we have Jenny Blackwood here with us.

[00:00:16] Jenny, oh my gosh, I feel like I could read your bio, but it's like, it's like a million pages, so I just wanna like dive in and like reveal as we go, like everything you do. part of what I love that you talk about is like...

[00:00:27] one, creating multiple income streams without burning yourself out, which is huge in the therapist world right now. Like, everywhere a therapist is like, "I've gotta pivot a little bit. I've gotta bring in some other income stream," because it is, it's getting harder and harder for us to fill our caseloads.

[00:00:42] You know, in the age of AI, and it, there's just a lot going on right now, so every day somebody's saying like, "Well, how do I bring another income stream in?" So I wanna talk about that, 'cause we're already burned out. So how do you do that without, like, burning out?

[00:00:54] And then the other thing is this building a life you don't need a vacation from, which is like a prime topic for the traveling therapist because, I mean, we, we live, most of us, a lot of us nomadically at least half the year travel around, and we're trying to work and do all of that at the same time, and essentially live on vacation really is what a lot of us are trying to do, and still bring in money and that kind of thing. At least that's what I'm doing. 

[00:01:16] Jennie: It sounds like a dream

[00:01:17] Kym: it's really nice. It's, fantastic, but I think you're gonna have a lot of good suggestions. So could you give us like your background, like your bio, maybe part of your story? 'Cause I love your story. It's amazing.

[00:01:28] Jennie: Thank you. Yes, absolutely, and thank you so much for having me on today. I really appreciate that, and hopefully my story will help inspire others listening today. I'll take you way back. So basically, you know, I was kind of living the societal norms. I went to high school, I went to college, I got the degree, and then it was like, "What the heck am I gonna do now?"

[00:01:45] Right? I was a mass communication major, so there's no real path cleared out for you with that. So I got kind of thrown into the marketing world, which was an accident, but also now I can see that that was very much on purpose as far as the, the universe is aligning with my entire future. But here's the thing.

[00:02:03] I start small. I'm like, "Hey, I kind of like this." Then from there I was like, "Hey, I'm gonna..." I started with a big mortgage company. Boring. So now I wanted to go work for, like, an agency that worked with multiple different faceted types of clients, so I decided to take the leap.

[00:02:17] I love it. I realize, though, I'm staying at these firms for, like, a year, and then I'm like, I got the itch to move on. So I kept... I was, like, job hopping, and I'm like, "What's wrong with me? Why can't I just settle down, pick a place, plant my roots," right? But I couldn't. And it was at this, like, one particular firm where all of a sudden I was like, "Hold on a minute," light bulb moment.

[00:02:41] I'm doing all the work. I'm bringing in all the clients, right? Yet I'm barely keeping my electric bill going, right? So

[00:02:49] Kym: Yeah, you're getting a small pittance of what, what is coming into this place. Right, right, right.

[00:02:54] Jennie: Yes. It's like those moments where you're like, "This doesn't make sense," 'cause I saw the checks that were being cut to the actual firm itself, and I'm like, "Hold on a second."

[00:03:02] And at this point, I mean, gosh, when I was in corporate, I wanna say I don't even know if I much surpassed $20 an hour. N-

[00:03:08] Kym: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:09] Jennie: I mean, who's living on that, right? That was about 11 years ago. But I went to my now ex-husband, but ex-husband uh, husband at the time and said, "You know what? I, I really think I could do this on my own."

[00:03:20] He's like, "What do you mean?" And I'm like, "Well, I'm doing all the work. I know how to get clients. Why not take a chance on myself? You know, why not see if I could really make something of the trade that I've learned, that I loved, and that I'm good at?" So he's like, "All right, I guess." But it's like, you know, when you assess risk in those situations, the interesting thing is, well, I could always go back to what I was doing before if it doesn't work out, right? Yeah.

[00:03:45] Kym: I always say that. Like, you could always go back and work for a group practice for therapists, right? Or God forbid, the agency life, which literally is probably like $20 an hour. It's terrible. But you can... I mean, it's, that option is always there, right.

[00:03:58] Jennie: And that feels good, you know? It's like I, I encourage everybody listening to this, if there's something out there you wanna try, really ask yourself, "Is the risk not worth the potential reward? Is there a plan B? Is there a plan C?" There's always a pivot in life, right? So a lot of times I think we just get so shelled up that we're like, "No, we can't possibly try," but you never know what's waiting on the other side, right?

[00:04:20] I found that out. So when I took this leap, I immediately had five clients follow me, which got a little dicey legally for a second, but it it all worked out fine. But, you know, I was like immediately affirmed and, "Oh my gosh, I did the right thing." I tripled my income the first

[00:04:36] Kym: my

[00:04:36] Jennie: Tripled. So I'm like, "What have I been doing?" You know? And I had no idea what to expect. I had n- I knew nothing about owning or operating a business at that point.

[00:04:45] So, you know, that was huge for me. That was kinda like my first leap into entrepreneurship where I was like, "Oh, there's always a way. If there's a will, there's a way."

[00:04:55] And I was at that point and like, "I'm never going back. I'm never going back to corporate." Yeah.

[00:04:59] Kym: Oh my God, I say that every day. Like, I will never work for somebody. I don't care what I have to do, it's n- that's never gonna happen. Or go back into an office. That would be, like, death for me.

[00:05:11] Jennie: Right? That's what I say. It's like going to prison or

[00:05:13] Kym: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay, so w- what were the... These were mortgage clients? Were you still in the mortgage industry,

[00:05:20] Jennie: Not at this point, no.

[00:05:22] Kym: Okay, so 

[00:05:23] Jennie: This was, like, a wild range of people. So if I looked back on 11 years ago, let's see how well my brain's working today, it was, like, car dealerships and renovation companies, and there was like, salons and spas, and I had a wide range of a different type of... You know, all kinds of clients. But I did that for a few years, and guess what happened?

[00:05:44] Kym: You got tired of it?

[00:05:46] Jennie: got tired of it. Exactly. And I'm like, "I don't wanna do this anymore." And it kind of... It was amazing though, you guys, because when I look back, not only did I triple my income, but right after I started it, my dad had been unfortunately diagnosed with cancer a few years prior.

[00:06:00] He had been really struggling. The amount of time that I got back in my life to be able to spend with him in those moments towards the end of his life were things that I never could've gotten back, something money could not buy, right? And looking back, I didn't have to ask a boss to go spend time with my dying father.

[00:06:19] You know? It was like, that was in my control, and that felt really freaking good. So that's another big, big vote towards entrepreneurship. But for me, it was just, like, the freedom, the flexibility, and it taught me so much in that initial venture that I was like, "Okay, what's next?" So you and I were joking, we have, like, 15 things going at one time, but that's because we've learned.

[00:06:41] You don't have to just stop at one, two, three things. You keep looking for holes. You shoot the gaps. You keep moving. But for me, I got to the point where I was like burned out. I don't wanna do this social media thing for everybody anymore. I got remarried. It was time to have babies. And I was very excited to be a stay-at-home mom and not have to work anymore.

[00:07:00] And so that was, like, really exciting for, oh, I don't know, let me look back on it, probably about 10-ish month, 12, eh, yeah, probably about 13 months. That probably was an amazing wave that I rode until my husband's income, which was... He's a real estate guy. So if anybody knows what's been going on in real estate the past few years, it has not been pretty.

[00:07:20] It's an ugly situation. So it was like, here's this income we were living off of that just went down the drain, like, it felt like overnight. So

[00:07:28] Kym: Oh my gosh.

[00:07:29] Jennie: terrifying, right? Yeah, not fun. So I, another pivot had to come. And y- y- Kim, I know that you will understand, like, the, like, freakout that I had inside, but all of a sudden I'm going, "Okay, so I see where this is going. He's been a real estate broker for 24 years. What's his next move, right?" I was like, "Oh, no. I'm gonna have to go back to a 9:00 to 5:00." And I was,

[00:07:53] Kym: Oh my gosh.

[00:07:54] Jennie: not gonna happen, right? I mean, what would you do if you got put in that position? You would scrape and do anything you could, right?

[00:08:00] Kym: Exactly. Yep, I sure would. Yeah. So, oh my gosh. So then what did you, like... because I, I tell therapists this all the time, right? We've got, like, a skill set already, right? We've got a skill set. We can listen to people, we can build rapport, we can s- essentially sell our services, people connect with us, and it's, it's pretty easy to do that.

[00:08:18] But it's a skill set you could take anywhere, right? So I guess once you went out on your own and you did it successfully, and then stay-at-home mom and all that, then you've still got this skill set, right? Crisis happens. H- husband's not bringing in the money for whatever reason. so what do you do? I've got all these skills.

[00:08:33] Like, how do you just decide? Like, to me, there's so many options. Like, how do you decide what you're g- where you're gonna channel it, and then where did you channel? Like, maybe you could tell that story.

[00:08:42] Jennie: Definitely. yeah, all of a sudden when you kind of go into fight or flight, I think some people kind of tend, like my husband, and I mean this with all the respect in the world, when things hit the fan, he kind of buries his head in the sand and kind of waits for the storm to pass, where I'm like, "Get out of my way.

[00:08:57] I'm gonna figure this out," you know? And so I remember I was super pregnant. By the way, I had a toddler, and then I had another baby on the way when this happened, and they're only 16 months apart, which you can imagine has been a wild ride.

[00:09:10] Kym: Wow. Yeah. Oh

[00:09:12] Jennie: I was only nine months postpartum when I found out, like, "Oh my gosh, I'm pregnant again."

[00:09:17] So I had these little babies to think about too, but here I am, and I want everybody to recognize something. Not everything has to come across your plate, like, in a package with a bow on top. Sometimes you have to read through the lines. I'm laying in bed, and all of... I'm s- doomscrolling, as we all do, and I see something that's like a traveling charcuterie cart, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I could do that.

[00:09:41] I love that. I could get out. I could be in front of people. I could..." You know, it was, like, my way of being able to also hold on to kind of, like, pre-kid me. And so I told my husband, and by the way, our savings is dwindling at this point because of the situation that we are in. And I'm like, "Hey, what do you think about me starting this thing up?

[00:09:58] Probably just cost me, like, a couple thousand bucks." And he's like, "You really wanna do this right now? Like, you're about to have another baby." And I'm like, "Yeah. Yeah, I think I do," right?

[00:10:07] Kym: I do.

[00:10:08] Jennie: Of course I do, 'cause I'm insane. That's another testament to there is no perfect timing, everybody. But I always tell people, the perfect time is when you need it the most, and I don't care what is in your way, push it out of the way and figure it out, right?

[00:10:21] So I did. So I decided to embark on a brand-new journey. I had never done anything in the food and beverage industry, but it's a very regulated industry, as you can imagine.

[00:10:32] Kym: Yes

[00:10:33] Jennie: S- so pushing through that was very difficult. I was, like, constantly Google spiraling and on the phone with people. I knew I wanted to do it the right way. So there I was, getting it all together, making it happen. It finally comes together. I put myself out on social media, and it, like, immediately goes viral.

[00:10:52] And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, like, people are loving this as much as I do." So I start booking all these events, which was so cool, right? I'm, like, feeling good about that. I go to work my very first event, and I had a baby three days later

[00:11:04] Kym: Oh my goodness. Oh my gosh.

[00:11:07] Jennie: Yes. Talk about a moment of defeat, you know, when you're like, "Wait a minute, this is not how this is supposed to go."

[00:11:13] Kym: as I'm getting this figured out. Yeah. 

[00:11:15] Jennie: So I again look back on that me, and I'm grateful that I didn't just go, "Maybe this is just a sign I'm not supposed to do this right now," or, "It's too hard," or I better...

[00:11:22] No. A door closed, and I was like, "How do I open the next door?" So I went onto, you know, Facebook, told people what I was doing, asked if anybody'd be interested, and I immediately built a team. I was able to run the charcuterie bar completely from behind the scenes. I had people who did all the prep, people who do all the events.

[00:11:38] And I was like, "Oh my gosh, what did I just embark upon? What, what have I started here?" So what happened there was it, it was honestly beyond anything I could have imagined. I was killing it with events. I was bringing in substantial income. I wasn't having to be the one on, on the front lines. I was getting to be the mom at home like I had wanted to be, right?

[00:11:59] So it was in those moments that I was like, initially, that was the first step of this little empire I've built. But it was such a pivotal point for me

[00:12:08] Kym: That's amazing. Oh my gosh. I mean, 'cause you're right, people would've stopped right there. Like, okay I don't think a lot of people think like, "Let me just get it, let me just hire a team," especially when money's running low, husband i- isn't bringing in money, there's... I mean, I guess you have savings or whatever, but that is a bold move in my opinion.

[00:12:27] Like, let me just... I'm, I'm in, I'm just gonna do this and just bring this team in to do it instead

[00:12:32] Jennie: Yeah, it was pretty crazy. Thank you for saying that.

[00:12:34] Kym: Yeah, you're welcome. It's wild. So, so it took off, right? I mean, it, it took off for you. Yeah

[00:12:41] Jennie: took off in that way, but then it took off in a way that I had also not envisioned, and that was that I started having women, I- and when I say globally, I mean that, women globally that were popping into my DMs all of a sudden and asking me how I did it.

[00:12:57] And I was like, "Oh, I, I would love to share that." But I, al- you know, at the same time it was starting to be, like, a lot to have to answer these DMs behind the scenes on everything, so I was like, "I gotta reassess this." People obviously want this info. I have the info. I had to suffer through to get to the point where I understand now how to open this business with ease and no stress, right?

[00:13:17] So I'm like, "Maybe I should create a course. Maybe I'll create a guide that teaches people how to go through it." And so I remember, you know, baby toddler, I'm like up late at night plugging away on my keyboard, just like, "Here's what I would do if I did it all over again," and I decide to launch it out. I, you guys, in the past, I wanna say it's been almost exactly two years, that one course that I just decided to do, like a fly by night, I think there's a gap for this, I'm gonna shoot it, has sold over $300,000.

[00:13:49] Wow.

[00:13:50] Kym: Wow. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh,

[00:13:54] Jennie: Isn't that crazy?

[00:13:55] Kym: That's amazing. That is absolutely amazing. And is this something, is it like evergreen? Are you showing up and doing like a coaching cohort with it, or is it more just like, "Here's the course," and people are just buying it

[00:14:07] Jennie: that's just the course. Okay, nice.

[00:14:08] Kym: Okay, nice. See, that is amazing that to not even have to...

[00:14:13] 'Cause I think that's everybody's dream. It's like, I wish I could just put a course out there, you know, around my specialty and have it sell and me not have to like always do that, like be present, like the whole thing is dependent on if I can show up consistently over time, that kind of thing. Yeah.

[00:14:26] Jennie: Yeah, it's a really great aspect of a funnel. I found that as people were purchasing this guide, there started to be a need for more. People were like, "Hey, I want more hands-on support. I wanna be able to go to somebody to ask questions. I need... My mindset is constantly getting messed with as I start this business."

[00:14:44] So I was like, "Okay, I see another gap." So then you're, you're absolutely right. Like, I then decided to open a higher ticket coaching program to where in the past 18 months I've had over 300 people go through my coaching program. And so... But you guys, this is all because I, I, I had a moment of despair. I didn't wanna go back to a nine to five.

[00:15:04] I saw an idea that kind of resonated with me. I didn't ignore the feeling I kept having about it. I chased it even in one of the hardest times of my life, right? I saw it through, and I continued to see where there was room for growth, where I was seeing a need for more from the people who liked me, followed me, all of that, and I just went for it.

[00:15:24] That's really what all it comes down to. There was nothing special about me, and this business this m- month just became a seven-figure business.

[00:15:32] Kym: Oh my gosh.

[00:15:33] Jennie: It's insane. Thank you.

[00:15:34] Kym: Ah,

[00:15:35] Jennie: can't even believe

[00:15:35] Kym: so exciting.

[00:15:36] Jennie: that. But it's like, if I could do it, trust me, guys, any of you listening to this can do it too.

[00:15:41] Kym: That is amazing. So how do you, how do you help with the mindset, right, right? If somebody's like, "Gosh, okay, I hear you. I'm so glad you did that, but I could never do that." Like, how do you help people with that mindset to just say, like, to keep pushing through when you're, like, postpartum with the second kid?

[00:15:57] And like, Where'd you find that? Is it, is that just, like, an internal driver that you have, you think? Or do you help people develop that and go and stay consistent and see it through to the end kind of thing, 

[00:16:08] Jennie: Super good question. I would say that I've had to fail a lot of times to be able to get the knowledge, the experience, and the growth to be able to give those types of talks to other people. You know, there's been plenty of times in my life where I felt like, "What am I doing? I can't do this." Imposter syndrome, all of those things.

[00:16:26] But every failure I've had has only made me better. And now I really believe that from the experiences that I've been able to have in the past 11 years, and trust me, it's, it's been a lot I now know kind of what it takes to talk somebody off a ledge. I was there once, right? And I can see past it. I got past it myself, so now I'm a pretty good advocate to helping people get out of their own way

[00:16:48] Kym: That's amazing. Yeah. And, especially in an industry where it's, like, kind of fear-based, like around the food and the regulations, and I don't wanna make a mistake and all of that. Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's amazing.

[00:17:00] The other thing that you talk about too is, like, building a life you don't need a vacation from, right? can we talk about what that looks like? Like, how are you making that work? You've got a team. You're doing this high-ticket offer, all of that going on.

[00:17:12] Like, how do you manage to, like, still have time for the kids and, like, enjoy your life and all of that? Let's talk about, like, how you build that out for people that are listening.

[00:17:21] Jennie: Yes, really good question. So h- are you familiar with a human design

[00:17:26] Kym: Yes. Oh

[00:17:27] Jennie: all about that, you know about

[00:17:28] Kym: I'm a generator.

[00:17:29] Jennie: Oh yeah, girl. Yes, yes, yes. So the thing is I, you know, I... It's funny. I didn't need that plan to know this about myself, but I feel much more confident in it now. I am, like, the builder. I wanna come across something, I wanna build it, and then I wanna send it off into the sunset and let somebody else run it, right?

[00:17:46] And so y- you're like, "Yes, I know that."

[00:17:49] Kym: I hear you. Oh my gosh.

[00:17:51] Jennie: We're kindred spirits here.

[00:17:53] Kym: I think so.

[00:17:54] Jennie: you know, it's just one of those things that it's like I, I wanna be the brains behind it, I want to have success from it, but my entire goal in what I've built... Remind you, you know, I started this because I wanted to have more time with my kids.

[00:18:07] I don't wanna be the one that's gone all day. I want that. So for me, it's like I've been able to build it up, and I, I mean, I work crazy hours in the build phase. Crazy hours. Like, put my kids to bed and stay up till midnight, 1:00 just making sure things meet, but I'm laying that foundation. I am now at a point where because I've gotten the machine well-oiled, I've hired people in the places that I don't want to do the work, right?

[00:18:32] I mean, there are certain things that when... whether it's the event side or the coaching side or whatever side, I've hired people in the places that I don't wanna spend my time. And then even lately, I, I, th- I put myself on time out a couple weeks ago. I was like, "You know what? I am working more than I want to."

[00:18:47] I am only going to work three days a week now. I'm done on Mondays and Fridays. I'm only working Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and I'm just holding myself to that. But I can because I've built this life with multiple income streams that fund it, not only for me to get to go do things like travel and enjoy time with my kids, but also fund it in ways that I, I am not burning out because I have people helping me where I need it the most.

[00:19:13] Kym: Exactly. So having, having that intention to begin with, I think, before you even start building, knowing that that is the ultimate goal and the life you wanna live, so building around that idea and making sure what you're building eventually supports that. I mean, I think we all have those, like, really late nights and, like, all week long, like working just nonstop in the beginning.

[00:19:31] But then knowing, like, "I can't do this on my own," like, "I need this team. I wanna be able to..." You know, your bio talks about a petting zoo, and I wanna hear about that too, but being able to build that, you know, build that lifestyle and then build in things that can support it, all with this, like, this energy of just like, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna make this happen no matter what."

[00:19:51] Jennie: Totally. It's like you know, we all believe in manifesting, some of us more than others, right? But I'm here to tell you guys, it's not hocus pocus. Like, it really works. The things that I have manifested in my life, it's like you you were joking about the, the petting zoo. But it's like, I just... I, in my...

[00:20:09] I, I live on six acres out in this, like, beautiful countryside. I have a miniature pony, three bottle-fed goats. I had just got two fluffy Highland cows, which for me have been, like, on my list of a, "I have to own a Highland cow," for I don't even know how long in my life. But it's like, I manifest it all, and I make it happen, you know?

[00:20:28] And so it's like, when I go outside and I see my beautiful babies and my fluffy cows and all, you know, all the things that I've manifested in my life, even down to my husband, you know? I mean, he's the best. He's the best dad. He's a great husband. And, like, I built that up here. I believe that firmly. I called that in, and now it's like I just get to live in this life daily.

[00:20:50] I mean, I, I still pinch myself in the fact that from a small charcuterie cart, this empire has erupted. But I... It's here, and I'm here, and I'm living my dream. So it's, it's possible, everybody. Manifest your life.

[00:21:05] Kym: yes. I mean, so do you think when you're looking back on it now, were you actively manifesting? Like, actively like, "I'm gonna put effort into this every day. Like, this is the vision for my future." Or do you think now looking back on it like, "Oh gosh, I think I manifested that"? Like, I'm just curious if, like, it, that was an intentional thing,

[00:21:21] Jennie: I've done like vision boarding, but no, I'm not the person that wakes up every day and is like, "I am worth millions. I am." You know? It's like I wanna do that, but I always forget to do it. I think it's more just like knowing where you wanna go and being unbelievably delusional and almost like living that life before you even get there.

[00:21:41] You know what I mean?

[00:21:43] Kym: A- absolutely. Yeah. I, yeah, I think you're so right. I keep envisioning the, the big yacht that my whole family can live on with me, but that hasn't happened yet.

[00:21:51] Jennie: You have to invite me out whenever it

[00:21:53] Kym: Okay, I will. Yeah, that's my... You know that what is that TV show Below Deck, where they come and they live on the yacht? I'm like, I, I wanna be that person one day.

[00:22:00] So that's my, that's my manifestation right now.

[00:22:03] Jennie: Where we make so much money we can just hand out a $40,000 tip like it's nothing.

[00:22:07] Kym: "Yeah, here you go. Here's your envelope of 40,000. Thanks for the three days." Yeah.

[00:22:12] Jennie: I'm with you. I am so with you

[00:22:13] Kym: Oh my gosh, I love it. So, so the petting zoo and all that, I mean, that's just amazing. Yeah. And then d- do you feel like, like, you're able to, like, devote all the time to the kids that you want?

[00:22:23] Or is there still a struggle with that? Like, 'cause for me, right, 'cause I've got my boyfriend, and we got the grandchild, and all this stuff, and you know, it's like I, I, I still struggle with that. Like, I wanna put more energy into the business, or do I wanna spend more time with them, you know? So have you found, like, a healthy balance, or is that always a struggle?

[00:22:40] Like, just curious how you manage it.

[00:22:43] Jennie: Yeah. So this is something that I'm kind of constantly reassessing. I'm a believer in the fact that if I want to build the life that I'm dreaming of for my family, that I'm gonna have to put in more time and more work upfront. Knowing that this build upfront is what I'm hoping will pave the way moving forward, it's like I'm okay to be spending maybe not quite the exact amount of time that I'd be hoping.

[00:23:10] They're both of preschool age now, and it's like I've seen them go, they thrive, they're socializing, they're learning way more than they would at home with me every single day. So that was kind of a pivot that I started with preschool this last year with both of them. But I was just, you know, gone...

[00:23:24] Again, reassessing, talking to my husband this morning going, "Oh, you know, I feel like they may be gone too much. I need to do this three days a week so that I could be home with them more," 'cause before I know it, they're gonna be in full-blown academic curriculums, and then I'm not gonna have a choice. So I think it's always finding a healthy balance, but also being realistic.

[00:23:43] Like, I can't spend three hours a day on this and get to the goalpost that I've set for myself. So happy mediums, you know, ne- not continuing to move the goalpost forward and forward and forward, but like really being realistic about what matters most, and then

[00:23:59] Kym: Yeah. Love that. So inspirational. Oh my gosh. So is, so right now it's, is, it's still the charcuterie business, it's the course, and then the higher ticket like mastermind. That's kind of the structure you have right now. Are, are, are there other things in the works or is that basically your core like offer right there with those, those three things?

[00:24:19] Jennie: Yeah, so that is like for any Snack Cart entrepreneur. I have that whole system set up for... And these, by the way, these women that are joining this program are making like crazy money. I

[00:24:29] Kym: I love it. I've seen, like, reels of like, oh my God, I want a personalized charcuterie board

[00:24:35] Jennie: Right?

[00:24:36] Kym: yeah, to my house. Oh my God,

[00:24:38] Jennie: You can make

[00:24:38] Kym: I just wanna drink a glass of wine and have one.

[00:24:41] Jennie: I, you know what? We're gonna bring it on the yacht. We're gonna bring it on the yacht when we, when we do that, 100%. But yeah, so it's, you know, I'm helping people establish that. Women are just desperate for transition, and, you know, and it's like i- people don't wanna go start a brick-and-mortar, spend hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[00:24:57] It's like I'm giving them this transition that may cost them a few thousand, and they're paying it off within a few events. And so that is, like, my, my flagship. But I have started, at the end of January, I started my podcast called Girl, Why Not You? And it's a very inspirational, entrepreneurial, female podcast.

[00:25:17] It is really just showing how so many different women started from nothing, started super messy, and then ended up turning their lives into something they never could have imagined. So I'm really excited about that. And then alongside that coaching, I have what's called the Why Not You method, which is for women who are not necessarily interested in snack carts, but are interested in more so understanding how to take an idea like I did, and how to transform it, scale it, grow it online, and turn it into a seven-figure opportunity the way I did

[00:25:49] Kym: Oh my gosh, that's amazing. So how do people find you? Where, where do we go

[00:25:53] Jennie: find you? You find

[00:25:54] Kym: start our own snack cart? Yeah.

[00:25:57] Jennie: There's a couple places to find me. Sorry, your show notes are gonna be long. But if

[00:26:01] Kym: We love it.

[00:26:02] Jennie: you can definitely find me on jennieblackwood.com, and it's I-E Jennie, not Y. That's kind of like a, a hub for all things. But then girlwhynotyou.com is my podcast.

[00:26:13] And then if you wanna see what we're doing out there on Instagram for my snack cart companies, it's socialgraze.charcuterie. So check it all out, you know? We, we've got a lot going on, a lot of irons in the fire, but really at the end of the day, all we're trying to do is help people get to the next level

[00:26:32] Kym: I love it. And, you know, I love that you're a guest because even the therapists listening, every- the other thing I see all the time is like, "I wanna quit this career and do something else," and what a amazing job this would be, especially for traveling therapists, right? I mean, I feel like this is a portable business that you could probably just, like, go live in a city and, and do it around there.

[00:26:51] And then, I don't know. I mean, I don't know how that would work, but I really like the idea of it.

[00:26:55] Jennie: It's so cool. I have women in there, I'll tell you one person just real quick. Her name was Shelly. She came on one of my walkthrough calls, which essentially is like telling you about the business so you can decide if you wanna start the business. She was a stay-at-home mom forever. Her kids are older now, didn't wanna go work for somebody else, and she was craving some new purpose.

[00:27:13] So she was like scared on the call, "I don't know if I can do this." Her husband talked her into it. And then, you know, week one she's like trying to fly off the handle and I'm like, "We got this, girl. We got this," right? So we set her on a path. She decided in those moments, "You know what? Because I don't know what I'm doing, I'm just gonna listen to everything they say.

[00:27:29] I'm gonna follow a roadmap and I'm just going to go." She did that. Couple of months in, she gets on one of my Q&As, I have weekly Q&As, and she goes, "Y'all, I have a problem." And I'm like, "What's the problem, Shelly?" She's like, "Well, in the past 48 hours I've had 72 people request a quote." And I'm like, "What?" I'm like,

[00:27:48] Kym: That's a pretty good problem.

[00:27:50] Jennie: huge problem. It's a huge problem. And so she's like, "I don't know. I've been doing what you said and I've been posting in all these Facebook groups," and it was like Wednesday, Tuesdays, and it exploded. Well, 'cause it was the end of the school year, it was graduation, it was summer parties, all these things.

[00:28:03] But she's like, "I can't do it." I'm like, "Oh no, you're gonna do it. You know, we're gonna get more carts. You're gonna hire people." That woman, Shelly, who almost didn't start because she was scared, in the month of May did $22,000 with her cart. Wow. Can you imagine?

[00:28:19] Kym: That is amazing.

[00:28:20] Jennie: if for anybody listening to this, this isn't just like, "Oh, I can make like 300 bucks a month."

[00:28:24] No. Like, people are out there making thousands a month, and it's all what you make of it, side hustle or, or a main gig. But it's pretty awesome

[00:28:32] Kym: Oh my gosh, so inspirational. Thank you for coming and sharing your story. I really appreciate it. And everybody listening, you can check out the show notes, find all the links to everything. And Jenny, I can't wait to go, like, discover everything you're offering. It's amazing.

[00:28:46] Jennie: Thank you, Kim. I really appreciate you having me here today

Build a Therapist Website Using AI in 2026 for $36 in Under Two Hours

You can build a therapist website using AI now, and it does not have to take nine months or cost five thousand dollars like mine did. I spent years bouncing from Weebly to Brighter Vision to a developer who farmed my project out and disappeared, and honestly, I regret most of that money and time.

In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, I'm walking through the exact process I used to build aifortherapists.com for about $36 in under two hours, using Claude to plan the site and Manus to actually build it. I'm also opening up my live AI website workshop on August 4th, 5th, and 6th, where we build a site from scratch together, plus a few lessons I learned the hard way about domains, contact forms, and email that you'll want before you start.

In This Episode, We Explore…

• Why Weebly, Brighter Vision, and a $5,000 web developer all fell short before she found a better way.
• The real cost of being locked into a website you cannot update yourself.
• How to use Claude or ChatGPT to plan out your website before building anything.
• What Manus does differently, and how she built aifortherapists.com there for about $36.
• What to check before transferring an old domain, including contact forms and email.

Mentioned in this episode:
AI for websites training https://kymtolson.kartra.com/page/AIwebsite
AI website I made: https://aifortherapists.com

Connect with me:

Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab

Subscribe to the Podcast:

Apple iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcast | Stitcher | Amazon | Castbox

______________________________

Sponsored by Berries:  Say goodbye to the burden of mental health notes with automated note and treatment plan creation! https://heyberries.com/therapists

Sponsored by Alma: Managing a private practice can be challenging. There are obstacles at every turn — from navigating the credentialing process, to managing finances, to finding new clients. That’s where Alma can help. Alma is on a mission to simplify access to mental health care by focusing first and foremost on supporting clinicians. https://helloalma.com/kym

______________________________

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Kym: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of "The Traveling Therapist" podcast. So this is a special episode. I'm just doing a little introduction for it. On my other podcast, "Run Your Private Practice with AI," you guys might or might not know about that podcast. We'll put the link down below in case you haven't found that podcast yet.

[00:00:16] Got about maybe, I don't know, 100 episodes over there too, just about different ways to use AI to help run your business more smoothly, make your life easier, that kind of thing. So I recorded this episode for that podcast, but then I got thinking, "Why don't I just share it over here for "The Traveling Therapist" podcast as well?"

[00:00:34] Because it's talking about an upcoming training that I'm having, and it's how to build websites using AI. And in "The Traveling Therapist" Facebook group, I see this question probably, like, two, three times a week, "Who do you guys use to help you build your website?" That kind of thing. So the good news is you can do it yourself with AI if you're into that.

[00:00:54] I know some people don't love AI, but I do. I'm obsessed with it. And I figured out this, like, kind of really cool way to build websites. In fact, my website, aifortherapists.com, I built using this method that I'm talking about this episode. So I thought I'd share it here too with "The Traveling Therapist."

[00:01:11] If you have any questions, let me know. And if you want to come to the workshop for building your website with AI, check out the link below and you can come sign up. It's the 4th, 5th, and 6th of August 2026. And if you can't come live, of course, you'll get all the replays, all the tools that we use to build out an AI website. You'll hear more about it in this episode.

[00:01:32] So this is kind of an exciting topic for me. I hear this all the time. You guys probably know this about me. I've got what? I have five large Facebook groups, an Instagram um, a YouTube channel. I've got three memberships.

[00:01:47] Anyway, I talk to a lot of therapists every day through all these different areas, and almost every week, at least two people ask me, like, "Do you guys know anybody that could help me with my website?" So it's a regular thing. When I first started in private practice, there was a thing called Weebly. It was like a free website builder, and it was like just blocks.

[00:02:05] You would like drag blocks in it. It was like so rudimentary. And then I found out about Brighter Vision. Some of you guys might still use Brighter Vision. I guess they're still around. But they were like a cookie cutter thing, right? Where you would just like pay a monthly subscription.

[00:02:17] They would like do an interview with you, and then they'd ask you what you wanted your copy to be and all that stuff. And they would put together these websites that looked pretty good. But you were locked in, right? For ever, essentially, until you canceled it. So I did Brighter Vision. I think I did it for like three years, four years.

[00:02:31] And then I got the bright idea. I was like, "Well, I'm gonna just pay somebody to do a website and be one and done and not have to worry about it anymore." You know? I don't wanna pay this monthly fee, that sort of thing. They've got control of my content, my SEO, my contacts, and all that stuff. So I di- I didn't like that after a while.

[00:02:47] So I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna pay somebody." And if any of you have tried to do this, you might have heard it's a nightmare or you might have found for yourself that it's kind of a nightmare to deal with like website developers. I don't know what the deal is, and I'm sure somebody's listening and they're like, "Well, my website developer was amazing."

[00:03:03] Anyway, I end up hiring this guy who's really nice and he met with me, he sold me the website. I liked him a lot. He was also doing like some coaching with me on the side for free, which was nice, but kinda weird too. so I hired him to do my website and I think it ended up being like maybe $5,000 when it was all said and done that I spent on that website.

[00:03:25] So if I'd stayed with Brighter Vision for a while, I mean, I would've paid that eventually. so I paid him to do it and it took about probably nine months, to get this guy to finish this website. He farmed it out to some other guy and that guy never showed up. He was too busy. It was just a total nightmare.

[00:03:42] So if you guys are listening to this, I just wanted to share my story and what I've heard others talk about too, 'cause it's a real pain in the butt. Now, with AI, everything has changed. You've probably heard me talk in here before about like all these amazing sales pages we're putting out. total game changer, right?

[00:03:59] Because Claude or Manus or whatever you wanna use can now just build websites for you really, not easily if you don't know how to do it, but it can be done. It can be a little overwhelming if you're not really familiar with AI, but it, it can totally be done. I built an entire website. It's called aifortherapists.com.

[00:04:15] I've got-- I just redid kimtolson.com which is really, it's the same story. It's been sitting there. The same guy did that website. It still like talks about me being just a therapist, which I'm really not anymore. I see two clients a month at the most.

[00:04:29] Yeah. So anyway, uh, you can build websites with AI now. You can. Now, I am getting ready to, on August 4th, 5th, and 6th, I'm hosting a three-day, 90 minutes each day workshop, where the first day we're gonna use... I develop these tools basically that you talk to, like you're filling out an intake form essentially. It takes all your information, and then it's so smart, it turns it into really good copy, and then the second tool turns it into a website blueprint.

[00:04:57] So day one, we're gonna do that. Day two, I'm gonna show you how to take the copy and the blueprint and put it into Manus. If you guys don't know Manus, I'll drop the link down below. It's amazing. We're gonna put into Manus the website requirements document basically is what this tool makes for you.

[00:05:14] So it makes a perfect website based on the interview it does with you. You take it, literally plug it into Manus, and Manus, you know, will thinking, thinking or whatever, and it's gonna generate this really awesome website for you. Complete admin dashboard, behind the scenes, all of that. And really what you can do is if you've got a URL already or a website with a URL pointed somewhere else to like, you know, a WordPress site or something like that you could just transfer the domain to this Manus website.

[00:05:42] It's very easy to do that. And then you can manage all the content in the back end. Because the other thing that happens, right? This guy that did my website for me, he did them on WordPress, two websites. One was a traveling therapist, one was kimtolson.com I ha- know nothing about WordPress. So you get the website, but then you're locked in 'cause it's like, what if you need to change something, right?

[00:06:02] What if I need to, like, update something, my rates change? What if I wanna add a contact form, that sort of thing? You can't do it if you don't know how to do it. So there's a whole another problem. Then you gotta pay that person to continue to update your site or, like, find somebody else to update it or figure out how to update it yourself, which can be a major pain in the butt.

[00:06:19] So this method that I'm gonna be teaching in the workshop builds a way in the back end that really you just vibe code your website with Manus. So you can talk back and forth with Manus, and it's gonna continue to change and update your, your website. And when I say vibe code, it's basically like you say, "Hey, I don't like that color.

[00:06:37] Can you change this color?" And Manus is so smart, it just goes in and updates the stuff for you. So it's almost like you're communicating with a website developer around your changes and what you want changed. You just hit enter, and it goes over and does it for you. And the admin dashboard is gonna have the ability to look at analytics you know, SEO.

[00:06:54] There's all kinds of amazing stuff you can do with SEO, AEO, and GEO, and that's the third day. I'm gonna show you guys how to do that on the third day. So I'm really excited about this. I'm a little bit nervous 'cause I've never, you know, I've never taught this to anyone before. These are just the tools I use to build my websites.

[00:07:09] Again, that AIfortherapists.com was completely built with this methodology, and it's, pretty good website if, if I do say so myself. Claude helped me build it completely, and it was built on a WordPress site, so I'm actually in the process of I'm gonna rebuild it out on Manus and be able to transfer it that way because I need more control over it myself.

[00:07:26] all that to say, the workshop's coming soon, fourth, fifth, and sixth. If you can't come live, you will get the replay. You'll get all the tools and be able to do this on your own. So link down below in the show notes.

[00:07:37] But I just wanted to tell you all that you actually can do this yourself, so it's not gonna be as easy or as fast as the tools I created.

[00:07:45] But really, go into Claude or ChatGPT or whatever you like, the one that knows you the best really, and tell it to interview you for building out a website. Tell it to interview you about everything that you'd like to have on your website, the pages your brand, who you help serve, your niche statement.

[00:08:02] You know, all of that we'll be doing in the workshop, but you can do all of that too with your AI. So just tell it what you're trying to do. Tell it to interview you, and then say, "I want you to be like a, you know, expert website designer, and I want you to create basically a requirements document that I can give to Manus and have Manus build this thing out for me."

[00:08:21] The reason I'm telling you to do it in Chat or ChatGPT or Claude originally is because Manus does take credits, right? So if you don't have like a full... Like, I've got the full Manus. I, I think I get like 44,000 credits a month or something, and I actually blew through all of them last month.

[00:08:35] That's how much I use Manus. But for the average person, they have a free tier. Every day you get 300 credits on Manus. And then I think they have like a $20 tier that you could pay for for one month or something if you wanted to do it for this. But, all that to say, any change you're gonna make on the website, it's gonna take credit, so you always want to program or you know, basically plan things out in a different AI, is where I would do it.

[00:08:59] Unless you have a million credits like me in Manus, it doesn't matter. But if you have like a, like a free ChatGPT account or a $20 account or a Claude account, you can go in there and plan the whole thing out first and get it all written in a really nice, complete prompt. Then take the prompt over to Manus and tell, you know, give it to Manus, and Manus is gonna know exactly what to do, the type of website you wanna build out.

[00:09:19] So you can do that, but I'm kinda giving you like cautionary things I've learned already. And then once you do that, you can look in the back end of what Manus creates, and it's almost got like an admin dashboard back there already that you can you could change the URL, you can transfer the domain name, you could turn on SEO optimization if you want to.

[00:09:38] All of that can be turned on on the back end of Manus in that dashboard. So, it's really fun once you do it. Once you get it all together and you put it in there, it's like, "Oh my God, I spent all this money and time." I mean, I kinda just regret all the money and effort I put in. And even kimtolson.com, like I haven't done anything with it for a long time, and I had Claude build out...

[00:09:57] It's really good in my opinion. I think it looks great. I can't wait to transfer the domain name and get that set up over there. My only hesitation with that, and I'm gonna tell everybody this in the workshop too, is my email address, info@kimtolson.com. It goes through that website, which was again, something this guy told me to do a long time ago.

[00:10:16] Now it's my regular email, and it's actually through GoDaddy. So I had to research this 'cause I was worried, and, and this is cautionary for some of you listening too. If you're going to do a method like this where you're just gonna transfer the domain, so you've got an old website sitting somewhere you don't like anymore, you wanna transfer the domain to this new website make sure that you've built into Manus, like all of the requirements.

[00:10:39] If you've got a contact form, you're gonna need to know the specifics of that contact form and make sure Manus knows that. Like there's a contact form, here's where it goes to, here's the emails it connects to. So you're gonna have to talk to Manus about that.

[00:10:50] The email address I was worried about, but I reached out to GoDaddy and basically the email address is through GoDaddy where I bought the URL.

[00:10:57] So even though it's transferred to a different like hosting site, I guess you would call it a hosting site, it's, it's transferred over there. GoDaddy is still like the main owner of that domain. It's just allowing me to like transfer it to a different address, so to speak. So in Manus, you know, it's gonna-- They, it reroutes what they call the CNAME record for your website.

[00:11:22] And of course, I'll talk about this all in depth on you know, the workshop. But basically you would-- you just wanna make sure anything you're transferring, anything that's functioning or bringing you leads on your website, you're gonna wanna make sure you take it with you to the other domain. So that would be like a caveat.

[00:11:37] Like when you're planning this thing, you need to be like "Okay, I've got a contact me form. I don't know how to handle that. I've got an email address here. Here's who hosts it." You know, GoDaddy or wherever you buy it, there's name, name, cheapnames.com. There's all kinds of places to buy domain names.

[00:11:53] And if you don't have a domain yet, name yet, you can actually even buy the domain name through Manus now. So those are all things to take into account when you build this out. Another tip that I'm gonna like show exactly how to do it in, in the program that we're gonna do is If you go to Pinterest and type in like therapist websites design or something like that, you'll see a million different designs pop up.

[00:12:15] Like, you know, some of them are AI generated, some of them are people trying to sell designs or that sort of thing. But if you see a couple that you like, like you like the style and the way it's laid out, you could take a screenshot of it and you can give it to ChatGPT or Claude where you're doing the planning and you could say, " this is actually the design that I want my website to look like.

[00:12:33] So included in this blueprint that we're gonna give Manus, I want you to give all the specific details about this particular layout of this website so I can make sure you follow that." Otherwise, you're just gonna get this real generic kind of website that's just like a bunch of boxes and that sort of thing.

[00:12:49] And you can vibe code, right? You can go back and forth with Manus after it's put up. If it's like, "Oh my God, this looks terrible. I don't like it," you can be like, " Can you make this look more boxy or more this style?" Or, "I want, you know, I want it to scroll more. I want it to be more of an interactive website."

[00:13:04] You can do all that after the fact, but it helps in the, in the beginning planning phases to pick a design that you really like. And your brand colors, you know, like what colors do I like? If you've already got a brand, maybe you've you use Canva already and you've set up like a brand kit in there with like different colors that you like to use.

[00:13:22] They're called hex codes. So each color in a brand has got numbers essentially that tell AI what the color is based on the hex code. They, they know what the color is. So you can put in a bunch of hex codes into the, the programming and you can say, "I want it to be these colors with these hex codes, primary blue secondary red, and here's the hex codes for it."

[00:13:44] And then, you know, Manus will know what you're talking about, and it'll go right to it and make sure that it's that color scheme that you want it to be. So those are just some, some tips or tricks that you can use. You can also tell it to build in places for images if there's image design that you wanna do.

[00:14:02] You could upload images of yourself. You could say, "Later, I wanna be able to upload images." Or even with Manus later, you could say, "You know what? I wanna add this picture in at the, on the hero section of the website," and you can upload the picture, and Manus is so smart, it'll like reconfigure everything and put it in there for you.

[00:14:17] But it's just gonna take more credit, so you just have to know that. But even like a paid plan of Manus is way cheaper than hiring a developer and then having to have somebody else maintain it for you, not knowing how to edit it or that sort of thing. You can do all of that through Manus now. So anyway, I'm really excited about it.

[00:14:36] If you guys are like, "Oh my God, I wanna learn how to do that," the link will be down below for the workshop, so you can come build it live with us. It's basically just us building it together. It's not like a lot of me talking or slowing, showing like slides or anything like that. Like, I hate showing slides.

[00:14:51] So we're just gonna open up, we're gonna use the tools, we're gonna do it together. There's gonna be like Q&A throughout. We're gonna build it. By the end of day three, you'll have a functioning website. And some questions I'm getting about it are, somebody already emailed me and said, "What if I already have a website?"

[00:15:06] Couple of things you can do. You can have the whole website rebuilt through this process that I'm talking about. Just say like, "Here's the link to my website. Here's what it looks like now. I really wanna have this, this, and this different, so I want you to create a prompt or a new plan so I can recreate the whole website over Manus with these changes that I wanna make."

[00:15:25] So you can do that. You can use, like this is not really gonna be in the workshop much, but it's more for people that wanna build like a whole new website out. But you can use like the Claude extension in the Chrome browser, open up your website, the back end of it and say you know, "I wanna make some changes to my website.

[00:15:42] I don't know how to do it." And you can let the browser extension like kind of walk through and do that for you. So that's like a hack if you're kind of stuck and you've been paying somebody to make little changes for you. But the big thing is you can recreate the whole thing and transfer the domain name and just have it in Manus.

[00:15:57] And that aifortherapists.com, I built that out, I think it took me about two hours, and I think it was about $36 in credits to build the whole thing out on Manus. But you know, I have a lot of credit, so it didn't affect me. But for somebody that's like price conscious, you might just wanna just be aware of all those numbers and stuff.

[00:16:16] And you might have to pay for a month of Manus if you can't get it done in 300 credits. You probably won't be able to build the whole thing out in just those free 300 credits. But after that month you can downgrade, right? And then you have 300 credits every day. So if you wanna make little changes, you can just do a little change that's not gonna cost much credit-wise And keep updating it like that and just have the whole thing re-hosted with a redirected domain through Manus where you can just manage all of it on the back end.

[00:16:42] So anyway, I hope that helps you guys. I hope you'll come to the workshop. If you're listening to this after August 4th, 5th, and 6th, 2026, we are eventually just gonna make it like an evergreen product, as we call it, where you can just download the whole thing and take the training then and then just do it yourself.

[00:17:00] Like, all the tools will be available in there. And of course, Thera AI Hub members, you'll have access to it also. It's al- You guys already have access to it. This workshop is totally free and included for you. But people that aren't in there would have to eventually pay for it later and be able to watch the replays if you wanted to, so if you listen to it after the fact.

[00:17:17] Anyway, I'll put the links down below and let me know if you have any questions. If you built your own AI website and there's things I'm not thinking of, let me know, 'cause I'm always learning. But anyway, this is a cool, easy hack for therapists who are brand new in private practice or, you know, don't wanna pay somebody and wanna update their website or change it around.

[00:17:36] It's a very easy way to do it, and it's fun. It's a little bit addictive. You could totally, like, just set up different chats in Manus and change the prompts and see which one you like better, the colors, that sort of thing, and then decide from there and transfer the domain to the one that you like.

[00:17:50] So once you get the hang of it, it's, it's really fun to play with different ones. I, I personally own about, I don't know, like 25 URLs, like domain names that I've bought over the years. So I'm looking forward to when I have some downtime just to make some better websites for all of those URLs. A lot of them are not even ones I ever activated, but I probably will now 'cause it's so easy to do and just host it in Manus.

[00:18:11] So I'm excited about that. Anyway, I hope that helps, inspires you. Again, if you have questions, let me know. And of course, we would love to have you in the Thera AI Hub where we're always building stuff like this, building out things that make your life easier as a therapist. Okay. Have a great day. Bye-bye.

The Realities of Being a Digital Nomad Therapist with Sonia Jaeger

Being a digital nomad therapist looks like freedom from the outside: laptop open somewhere new, sessions running from a different country every few months. But the reality involves a lot more paperwork than postcards.

In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, I sit down with Sonia Jaeger, who has been running her practice from all over the world for over a decade. We get into what it actually takes to work internationally as a therapist, from navigating shifting regulations across Germany and France to building the kind of support system that keeps you from doing it all alone.

In This Episode, We Explore…

• How online therapy regulations in Germany have changed since Sonia started in 2014.
• The legal difference between working as a counselor and a licensed psychotherapist abroad.
• Her routine for settling into a new location before taking on client work.
• How she manages client sessions across time zones while keeping a small caseload.
• What led her to co-found the LIT community for location-independent therapists.

Connect with Sonia Jaeger:
Website: https://www.sonia-jaeger.com | https://locationindependenttherapists.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drsoniajaeger/ 

Get 25% off the first payment of LIT Community membership (monthly or annual plan) using the code THETRAVELINGTHERAPIST

Connect with me:

Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab

Subscribe to the Podcast:

Apple iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcast | Stitcher | Amazon | Castbox

______________________________

Sponsored by Berries:  Say goodbye to the burden of mental health notes with automated note and treatment plan creation! https://heyberries.com/therapists

Sponsored by Alma: Managing a private practice can be challenging. There are obstacles at every turn — from navigating the credentialing process, to managing finances, to finding new clients. That’s where Alma can help. Alma is on a mission to simplify access to mental health care by focusing first and foremost on supporting clinicians. https://helloalma.com/kym

______________________________

Transcript:

[00:00:06] Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist podcast. I'm really excited to have our guest today, you guys. I can't wait to share her story.

[00:00:14] Kym: Sonia, let's dig in. I always start this podcast out and just say like how'd you go from being a typical therapist to a traveling therapist?

[00:00:22] Sonia: Yes, thanks for having me. So I started with a, basically a sabbatical in 2014, where after finishing my PhD, I decided to take a break to travel the world before I would open up my private practice in Germany where I'm licensed. And while traveling, I met someone who was like, "But why don't you do this online?

[00:00:43] I talk to my psychologist online. You could do this as well." And I had never heard of this. This was definitely not a thing back in 2014, especially not in Germany. And I started looking into it, got curious, and went back to defend my PhD thesis for a few weeks, and then went back to Thailand and decided to give it a go.

[00:01:03] I had planned to give it six months to see if it could work, and yeah, started building, you know, my website, the concept of the online practice, figuring out how to do this within the German legal system where I was still based. so yeah, that was 12 years ago, 11 years ago. And so I've been doing it since then

[00:01:22] Kym: you had, like, no guidance. I mean, now it's like, I mean, it's not easy, but it's so easy to just, like, look it up and how do I do this? How do I become an online therapist? And especially, you know, with the US stuff, but amazing. So tell us, tell us about Germany and the regulations.

[00:01:37] Like, when you started that, like, what did you face and has it changed over time or is it still pretty much, you know, a lot of hoops to jump through?

[00:01:45] Sonia: Both. So back when I started, online therapy was just not a thing in Germany at all. It was not allowed to do it online, and that changed in 2018, but it was still with a lot of restrictions around it. Then COVID happened, and for a while it was very open, obviously, but still complicated. And now it's at a stage where it is possible, but not as an insurance-based system if you want to practice, if you want to travel, because you have to be physically located in your private practice if you are an insurance business.

[00:02:18] Now, I had originally planned to get into the insurance work, which in Germany needs to have to buy in to the... You have to buy a seat, costs 40 to 80,000 euros at the time. It's very restrictive. You have to apply for it. So it's, it's a very different system from the US system. There is also the private pract- or the private health insurance system in Germany, but that's only a small percentage of people.

[00:02:40] And back when I started, the idea in Germany, I think, was that it just does, doesn't work online. And so I very quickly started to look at other countries and at the research and noticed how much further ahead in the telehealth domain some other countries were, and how it is very well-researched at the time already.

[00:03:00] And the Netherlands in Europe were one of the countries that was, were researching it a lot. And what I had to do in the end is that I switched to counseling, which isn't regulated in the same way in Germany. It means I can't work with people with a mental health diagnosis. Now, there's a lot of gray area in that obviously as well, as with every type of law and regulation.

[00:03:20] But you can provide psychotherapy online now in Germany if they have seen someone in person for diagnostics. And so the first sessions basically need to be in person, but they don't have to be with the same provider. So there are ways to do it today, but I just stuck to the counseling because I loved it.

[00:03:40] I realized that it's actually exactly the type of people I want to work with. They don't have severe mental health issues, but they still want a real therapist who has an experience and training and knows what they're doing. And I work with clients all over the world while traveling myself, and I do it in three languages, and it's been amazing.

[00:04:00] Kym: That is so amazing. So you got your PhD, and then essentially you weren't able to use it because you wanted to be able to travel and... Or, or were

[00:04:10] Sonia: German PhD is actually a different... 

[00:04:12] Kym: Ah, okay. It's like, does it translate?

[00:04:14] Sonia: yeah, so, let's take a step back. So I'm French and German. I grew up in Germany, went to a French school, so always between those two countries and languages and cultures. And then I studied psychology, what is now the equivalent of a master's in psychology in Germany back then called a diplom psychologist.

[00:04:31] And then another five years of psychotherapy training, which is what gives you the license to practice psychotherapy in Germany. And then I did a PhD unrelated to my therapy work, working in research at a university, mostly at the time because I wanted to move to that city, and it was the first job that was available.

[00:04:50] And I really had enjoyed research as a student, and I thought, "Why not, why not?" And yeah, so I did those, all these different things in Germany, and then I started traveling. And then now I have five different businesses, I think, or I don't know how many. You

[00:05:04] Kym: Oh, wow.

[00:05:05] Sonia: What is a business? What's a project? What's a side income?

[00:05:08] Kym: Yeah,

[00:05:08] Sonia: my-- the core of my business is

[00:05:10] Kym: It all blurs together. Nice. Okay. So, what is the type of research that you would do, like somebody, you know, with your degree that you're practicing under right now, when you're trying to go to Thailand and Australia? 'Cause I know you're sitting in Australia right now. It's like 9:30 PM for you. It's 8:00 AM for me. We had to make that schedule work.

[00:05:28] Maybe for somebody listening that's maybe international or even from Germany what type of research did you have to do or do you still do when you're going to a new place to figure out if you're able to see your clients still?

[00:05:40] Sonia: So one of the great advantages of providing counseling and not therapy in Germany is that it is a lot less regulated. So I have a lot more freedom in what I'm doing, I think in the US a lot of people switch to coaching, which is more different in terms of content, right? the other side of the piece is what is the immigration situation, right?

[00:05:59] And so how much can you work on a tourist visa? Because that's what I've been doing for the last 12 years. I'm mostly on tourist visas. In most countries that's perfectly fine as long as you don't take away from the local workforce. So if I work for my business back in Germany with clients who are somewhere else, that's fine.

[00:06:19] I'm frequently in Australia, where my partner is from, and Australia is a country with pretty s- strict immigration rules, so I do not take on clients from Australia, for example. Australia does not mind me being here on a tourist visa and working with my clients that are elsewhere, but they would not like me taking on Australian clients because I would be taking away from the local economy.

[00:06:42] And that is something that you just, I don't know, figure out over the years of being a digital nomad and connecting with other nomads and, you know. I mean, it was so much harder back in 2015, '16, my first few years. But the other question is always who will actually ask those questions and who really cares, right?

[00:07:00] Like, what are the gray areas that you're willing to navigate? What are the risks that you're willing to navigate? what you do when the laws have not caught up with the life and the work we do? And the reality is that even 10 years ago, there were people, so I mostly work with Germans and French who live abroad, where they don't have access to a therapist, and until people like me started providing this, they just didn't have options .

[00:07:24] It was just bad luck, right? If you live somewhere in Africa where there's no local therapist who speaks your language and you're an expat but have some mental health issues, maybe if you're lucky, your company provides something for you, but maybe not. And so I think therapists have always found ways to make this work because there was also always a demand.

[00:07:43] But it is... yes, navigating laws and regulations is definitely not the most fun part of all of this.

[00:07:49] Kym: I know. I think it, I think it scares so many people and they just don't try. You know? That they, even though they have the passion to travel the world and that sort of thing, they don't try because it's intimidating, or not knowing exactly what's right and what's not right, not being able to find answers. I see that a lot

[00:08:05] Sonia: Now, it also helps that I'm not from the US, and in my country where I'm from, no one does lawsuits of this, the kind you do.

[00:08:13] Kym: Oh, that's a good point.

[00:08:15] Sonia: The risk that I'm taking if I'm doing this is much lower than someone from the US where lawsuits are a common thing. Not that I would say you should start doing unethical and un- illegal things, but it's just also my background is so much safer because this is not something that's constantly happening. still think it's really important to follow the laws and the regulations, but yes, sometimes they're just not really where we need them to be or where the world needs them to be, and they're quite slow to change. The other side of this is, until now, I've kept my business in Germany, so I've been fully digital nomad style, never stayed anywhere long enough to become a local or tax resident.

[00:08:52] I have, during COVID got an exemption to come into Australia at some point and stayed here for more than six months in the tax year. But that was an exception, so it was okay, you know? So, so y- there are a lot of things you need to navigate. It's... I always tell people it's so much easier if you just keep traveling because you can just keep everything in your home country.

[00:09:12] So I still have the same business, the same accountant, the same thing from when I started. I'm currently in the process to actually moving to France. So I just got my title recognition for being a psychologist in France. I already had the nationality, so that's makes things much easier for the actual move, and we have been more and more spending time in France, so I want to move my residence there, my tax residence, my business, and that's a huge process, and I really know why I did not do this until now.

[00:09:39] But I'm at the point where I actually need to do it. It's, it's fine. It's just, you know, one of these admin things that you have to go through at some point when you want to be somewhere

[00:09:47] Kym: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. so getting recognized with your psychology license in France, Are you then able to, like, take insurance in France under that license that you are recognized with now? Or will you still remain, like, this, I guess, counsel- you're calling it counselor, but, like, coach sort of arena when you get into France? Is that just gonna make it easier? Just curious how you'll navigate that.

[00:10:09] Sonia: so there are a couple of different things in there, and one of them is the different market rates. so it's a fun thing when you work internationally. The German standard rate for a therapy session is €100 roughly. In France, it's more like 50 or 60. So I'm not planning on changing anything apart from the paperwork needed.

[00:10:30] I will still keep my self-pay private practice. I will obviously change the name. The invoice will be a different address, th-those kind of things. But I'm not planning on changing anything in my business model because it wouldn't make sense to switch to a system that just has so much lower fees. And same if you work in the insurance, there's very little that gets reimbursed.

[00:10:50] What does change is that so counseling in Germany you need to charge VAT, whereas psy-psychotherapy is exempt from VAT. But as I'm not providing psychotherapy at the moment, I have to charge 19% VAT. In France therapy is more open and easy, so I will be able to provide therapy or name it, call it therapy, and it's VAT exempt.

[00:11:13] So I will-- there will be a financial benefit there. Now, my other businesses will still have to charge VAT because a community or a workshop or, or a, you know. it's a complex system to have a business in Europe

[00:11:26] Kym: Absolutely. Now, do you have like an accountant? I don't know what maybe it's called in, in Germany, but somebody like an accountant that is helping you, like, figure all this out, or are you just doing a lot of the research and figuring it out on your own? You know, I just wonder, do you have recommendations for somebody listening that's like, "That does sound complicated. I don't know how to do it."

[00:11:44] Sonia: Yes. So I used to when I first got started in Germany, I used to do my tax myself. And then once we launched the community, the LIT community for location independent therapists, it became more complicated because it's an electronic thing. It's local VAT where the person is based. It's not like... Yeah, it's complicated.

[00:12:05] And that's the point when I realized, okay, I need an accountant. I don't want to spend my time doing this. And so I've had an accountant now for seven years or something like that in Germany. So they're really good with understanding the difference between counseling and therapy and selling a product online and which VAT of which, and if you're under the threshold and how, like all of these things.

[00:12:26] And I've also always used platforms that do these things for me. So for example, I sell a course for German colleagues on how to do better video sessions and I run that through a platform that will charge the correct tax depending on where they're from and all these things, because that's just...

[00:12:44] Yeah it's too complicated. And also I don't want to have to handle tech issues. I don't want to, you know, if someone needs a refund or if something happens with the technology, I don't wanna be available all the time. And my assistant also, I have an assistant and she also likes to tame-- take time off.

[00:13:02] So do I. And so I try to outsource all of the things that aren't the core so that I can focus on the things I can do best really.

[00:13:11] Kym: I think that's one of the smartest moves as an entrepreneur to just, like, know your zone of genius and then farm the rest out to experts so you don't have to spend a lot of time learning a whole new trade or floundering with things. Yeah.

[00:13:24] Sonia: I think also understanding what your priorities are. So I, so I come from a system in Germany where we have at least six weeks of holidays a year. I took my sabbatical because I knew once I had a private practice in Germany, it would be unlikely to take more than a month off at a time.

[00:13:39] Working online, I now do take about 10 to 12 weeks off a year, and that's a real priority for me. I don't take them like... One month is the longest I do at a time, but I do take quite a bit of time off, both for traveling and for actual holidays. And when I'm off, I'm fully off. I do not check my emails. I don't have access to anything.

[00:14:01] you know, I'm really away from it, and that was a real priority for me. And so I needed systems that would work without me. And it does help that I work with clients who also are really fine if they don't-- I mean, most of them,

[00:14:14] Kym: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:14:15] Sonia: it's fine if I'm away for a while

[00:14:17] Kym: I love that. Yeah, I, I talk about that a lot myself. Like, I used to see really intense, like, PTSD and trauma clients. And then when I decided to go all online, I was just like, I need low acuity. I need, like, mild adjustment disorders where they could be fine without me or not , you know?

[00:14:34] It just made my life a lot easier. And you could take more time off, yeah, and, and really live, enjoy the places that you're traveling to, which I think is amazing. Yeah.

[00:14:42] Sonia: And I think that is one of the kind of misconceptions of people going into the digital nomad life is that because you can work from everywhere, you end up working all the time. And the biggest issue or reason why digital nomads stop being nomads is because they burn out.

[00:14:58] They travel too fast. They don't take time off. They don't give themselves and their body time to adjust to a new place. It's really exhausting, or it can be if you don't take care of yourself, and it's the same with being a therapist. I know therapists who see 25, 30, even 40 clients a week. I don't know how they do it.

[00:15:19] I see 10, sometimes 12, and I have many other things I do, and I love the combination of those. And I can take time off more easily because of that as well

[00:15:29] Kym: Yeah. Well, let's talk about that, 'cause that was a mistake I made for sure in the beginning. I was like, "Oh, we're gonna move every week. There's so

[00:15:36] Sonia: Yeah.

[00:15:36] Kym: see. It's so exciting." But I mean, literally, you get to a place, it, it takes a week to even just, like, know where the refrigerator is in a place, you know?

[00:15:45] To even get, like, accustomed to, like, where you're at. So part of what you talk about is, like, when you get to a new place, like, how do you set yourself up for success and to be able to, like, see your first client in that new location? Like, Do you have a process or a strategy for somebody listening? 

[00:16:01] Sonia: my biggest lesson learned is to never work on a travel day, and ideally not on the day, the first day in a new location. So even if you think, "Well, I arrive early and I'm familiar with the place," no, no, no. The Wi-Fi might have changed, something else might have changed. Just don't do it.

[00:16:18] Give yourself at least a day to kind of settle in a new place, to set up your workspace, and that's what I do. I will find a space for my client sessions, and I have a separate space for my office work. So I really like physically separating those two types of things. Right now I'm sitting in my client workspace in the spare bedroom in this house we have for these three months that we are here.

[00:16:40] And then it depends a bit on is it a new place or is it somewhere I'm familiar with? So I often go back to countries I've been to already, then that helps because I know how the supermarket works. I know how the, you know, recycling system works, all these things. If I don't know anything because it's completely new, I will definitely give myself more time, or if there's jet lag involved, definitely give you...

[00:17:02] You know. And then, yeah, the physical setting up of the workspace for me is really important. And then one of the things I love is that no matter where you are, your work will be kind of the same. So opening the laptop and answering an email or working on a project or working on something for me is very, very grounding.

[00:17:21] So I used to take a few days off when I got to a new place, completely off to kind of settle in the place, and I realized that for me that was actually not ideal. The better combination for me is to take off from calls and from client work, but to do a few hours of admin or marketing or back-end work, because that is super grounding because it is the thing that stays the same.

[00:17:42] And for me, it reduces the culture shock, it reduces the adaptation issues, because I have a few hours during that day that are just very familiar, and then I will go out and explore, and I will try to understand how the supermarket works and what food I can buy and, you know, all these things.

[00:17:57] And I rarely travel very fast. Like as you said at the beginning, the, your experience of trying to do it too much. So I will try to stay a month somewhere. Also because you get much better deals on accommodation if you stay somewhere for

[00:18:10] Kym: Yes, for sure.

[00:18:12] Sonia: back when I started, the first day was filled with getting the local SIM card, which now I can do before I leave because we have eSIMs.

[00:18:19] You know, but before, few years ago, that required physically going to a shop and buying a SIM card and trying to get it activated, and sometimes that would take the whole day and going back three times because it wasn't working and... So doing all these kind of logistics is definitely part of my setup routine.

[00:18:35] And then Yeah, just living life, like reading the book that I'm reading, you know, just doing these things that are kind of familiar while also balancing that with exploring a new place and enjoying being somewhere different. And I really love working from cafes for my admin work. So I will go to a different neighborhood in that city that I'm in and, you know, work for two or three hours on my laptop and then go out and explore.

[00:19:01] And then obviously I will be at home for my client sessions, but on days when I don't have sessions or half days when I don't have sessions, I really like combining the working and exploring somewhere new

[00:19:13] Kym: Yeah, I, I love that. It's, it just, I feel calm just hearing you say how you do it. Just makes me feel calmer, so I really love that. So let's talk about the entrepreneurial piece, 'cause we talk about that a lot on this podcast. I've got tons of other income streams. I really don't like to be dependent on that one-to-one model, especially for what we're talking about, you know?

[00:19:33] I wanna be able to not see clients for a month if I wanna go to Australia or something. So let's talk about everything you've built, because even when I started this, one of the first touchstones for me was your Facebook group, The Location Independent Therapist. I figured out the online thing by the online therapist group, and then eventually I found yours 'cause I love to travel, you know?

[00:19:54] So let's talk about, like, that evolution, your group and your community, and I think you have a directory, right? You have, I mean, you've got a whole ecosystem that you've created for, to help nomadic therapists, so I'd love to just talk about that and maybe you know, how you built it and that sort of thing.

[00:20:13] Sonia: So Coming back to the beginnings, I think once I had my website, even before I had my very first client, I had a German colleague reach out to me asking how to do what I'm doing.

[00:20:25] And I was like, "Well, I don't know, because I'm just getting started. I have no idea how to do this. Come back in a few years, hopefully."

[00:20:30] But I did very quickly realize that it was very lonely to do this work while traveling. I enjoyed both the work and the travels, but I really needed more support and more community, and so I started looking for them. And I think we started a Facebook group in 2016, ' 17, something like that, I'm not sure.

[00:20:50] Basically out of a digital nomad Facebook group where someone asked, "Are there any other therapists who are also digital nomads?" And then a handful of us were like, "Yes, yes, yes. Hi. Hello." And so we started a Facebook group, and then Melissa joined us, and we've been running it together for many years now, and we very quickly wanted more.

[00:21:11] So we started with a book club. Book club was actually one of the first things we wanted. We both kept talking about how we should read more professional books, but it's also kind of tricky to find the time for it, and then it were lovely to have a book club, but she was living in Spain. She's from the US, but was living in Spain at the time, and then later moved to the Netherlands.

[00:21:29] And so, like, how do we do this? And so we started an online book club for therapists, and then we started a mastermind group to help with the business side where we there were five of us at the time who would meet, I think, every other week and discuss business-related things, how to do all of this online business stuff and entrepreneurial thing.

[00:21:48] And then out of these, we in the end in 2019 decided to create the LIT community. So Melissa and I met 2018 f- in person at a conference in Colombia. It's the first and only time so far that we've met in person.

[00:22:03] Kym: Oh, wow.

[00:22:04] Sonia: that. Yeah. We've been working together for so many years, but yes.

[00:22:08] So we, we were together at a conference for digital nomads, presented on mental health for nomads together, and came up with this idea for the community, which we then launched in February 2020, which turned out to be a very interesting timing for launching a membership for location-independent therapists.

[00:22:24] The travel piece kind of s- was, you know, a bit reduced for the next time for most of our members. But it was an really amazing space to turn to, to have colleagues from different countries working in different modalities and from different backgrounds and different cultures and all of that. And so from the beginning, we had this international online piece to it, and we've obviously grown over time.

[00:22:47] We have a mix of business events and clinical events, so we- We still have a book club. We now also have a movie club where once a month we will discuss a therapy, counseling-related, psychology-related movie or TV show that we've all watched. And we run business coaching events and, social events, all types of things.

[00:23:06] And so yeah, so I've been doing that with Melissa for, for a while now. And then I've also been running workshops and have content for German-speaking colleagues, because I very quickly became the German online psychologist. When I started, as I said, there wasn't really anyone doing it, so within a year, my blog was number one on Google if you looked for a psychologist in Germany who works online. so I've, over the years, had many different things for German-speaking colleagues workshops that I run together with collea- with f-friends and colleagues. I run a workshop twice a year with a business coach in German. I now also have... I host webinars and, you know, all types of things around marketing and being an online therapist.

[00:23:53] I also now have an online course for German-speaking colleagues who just about how to do better video sessions, because there are more and more colleagues joining this online setting, but I also hear more and more from clients complaining about therapists not really being confident with navigating this video setting and this online space, and how to still be creative and authentic, and how to navigate tech issues.

[00:24:20] And at the same time, colleagues don't feel... often don't feel that confident or feel like it's limiting their, their way of working. And there wasn't much in the German-speaking world, so I created some stuff. And so I have the German kind of side for colleagues. I have the international side with the LID community, and then I have the counseling in three languages.

[00:24:38] And yes, it's, it's a complex setup, but it's fun.

[00:24:42] Kym: It is. But yeah, it's fun, right?

[00:24:44] Sonia: Yes, it is. And I'm also not doing it alone. I have an amazing assistant that I've had for many years who does most of my marketing for my, my, my main business. The Lit community, I have my co-founder Melissa, and we have an amazing assistant, Georgia, who runs the day-to-day admin of the community and most of the marketing as well.

[00:25:03] And so we can also both take time off. Not that long after we launched, Melissa had her first child and went on maternity leave. She now has two children. So we've experimented with all types of you know, working as a team in different ways and how, for her, how to navigate maternity and an online business or multiple online businesses, also really interesting topic. And it's been a fun journey. It still is

[00:25:26] Kym: And, and, and don't you have a directory too?

[00:25:27] Sonia: Yes. so as part of the LIT community for members, we also have a directory of location-independent therapists. So it's all members of our community who are on the

[00:25:37] Kym: Oh, okay

[00:25:38] Sonia: For clients all over the world who are looking for a therapist who is familiar with the online work and the international work.

[00:25:44] And so you can also, like, filter by language, and so we have lots of different languages on there, lots of different specialties. And I think we currently have... So not all our members are on the directory. I think we currently have something like 34 or so members on the directory last I checked. And it's really nice, and it's a nice for them, a, a nice way to get more clients obviously.

[00:26:05] But in the end, I would always encourage everyone to just work on their own website and work on their own marketing, because a directory is great, but you don't know how the algorithm is gonna change or what's gonna happen in a few years, and you need to really build your own business in the end if you want this to work.

[00:26:21] Unless you, live in a country where you can do the insurance thing, then it's a little bit different. But for most of us who are self-pay, you need to build up your own system for sure.

[00:26:31] Kym: Yeah, ' when you were talking earlier about, like, that example about there's, you know, a potential client in Africa who can't access care, I was just wondering, like, do you have tips? Like, how do you... how, as somebody like you, do you, are you finding clients out there in the world? I mean, I guess you're just keeping yours restricted to, Germany, right?

[00:26:49] You're just, you're just seeing clients in Germany or are you also seeing clients around the world?

[00:26:53] Sonia: They're, they're all around the

[00:26:55] Kym: Just Germany. Oh, they're all around the world. Okay

[00:26:57] Sonia: I have actually almost-- I don't have that many clients who are in Germany. 

[00:27:00] Kym: Oh, okay. Gotcha

[00:27:01] Sonia: some foreigners living in Germany who then come to me, or some French people living in Germany and some, But most of my clients live so I think on most continents at the moment, I have clients.

[00:27:11] I have some in South America. Actually, I don't have anyone in North America at the moment but I used to. I have clients in Asia, I have clients in Africa quite a bit, and then all over Europe. And most of my clients have moved at least one or two times in the time they've worked with me, because a lot of them work with me long time, or they come back after a few years.

[00:27:31] And so especially when they know that they will be moving soon or even within a country, right, online is the best solution for them. so yeah, most of my day is basically I'm traveling, but then also I'm traveling through my clients.

[00:27:45] Kym: Yeah.

[00:27:45] Sonia: I was sharing with a friend today that I have a client at the moment who's applying for jobs in different countries.

[00:27:50] And while I hope for her that she finds the best job in the best country for her, I'm also like, I kind of hope she goes to that country because I've never had a client there, and I've never been there, and I want to learn something about... It's so exciting to learn something about a new country. But it's also interesting to work with clients who are in countries that I'm familiar with.

[00:28:08] And it's one of those things where having the LID community as a support group for myself and peer group, especially supervision group, has been really helpful. Because if I have a German client who, I don't know, lives in Brazil, for example, and has a Brazilian partner, they will bring topics to the session where I don't know, is this a cultural thing or is this maybe that person?

[00:28:32] Or, you know, how does culture play into this? Is this just they're telling me that this is normal in that country, but is that true? So having colleagues who actually are from that country or who live in that country or who, you know, have been there is super helpful to understand how to help my clients best.

[00:28:49] Kym: Yeah, 'cause they could be like, "No, that's not how we do it."

[00:28:52] Sonia: Yeah.

[00:28:53] Kym: That's not

[00:28:54] Sonia: sometimes they can be like, " Oh, no, no, that's very typical for South American men." Like, you know, a G- a G- German is very different from a South American partner, and sometimes they have interesting topics coming up in their relationship. And I also work with couples, so mostly actually German-French couples because that's the two cultures I grew up with and I'm most familiar with.

[00:29:13] And they're fairly similar on a, similar on a global scale, but obviously not that similar. And so it's really useful to work with someone who shares that cultural background.

[00:29:23] Kym: That's amazing. So with all that being said, how in the heck do you manage the time zones? When you have clients all over the world, you've gotta have a system. Tell us your secrets, 'cause when I heard that I was like, "Oh my gosh," my brain started to, to swim. I'm like, "Clients all over the world? I don't even know how I'd manage that.

[00:29:41] If I'm moving, they're moving." Yeah, how do you manage that? What's the system?

[00:29:45] Sonia: well, first it really helps that I don't have too many clients. Then not all of them come every week, right? So there's already... The, the baseline is pretty helpful. And then my clients know that I'm a digital nomad. I've made this part of my brand and my marketing, and I know upfront that I'm going to be traveling, and I will also be in different time zones whenever I know.

[00:30:08] So I try to stay in roughly one time zone for at least a few months at a time. So right now I'm in Australia for three months, and then I will be in Japan for a month, and that's more or less the same time zone, plus minus one or two hours. that's pretty easy to navigate. Then I will be back in Europe, which is a bigger change.

[00:30:24] so I will announce it ahead of time early on. I also use a booking system you know, that manages the time zones. I don't have to do that manually. And I've found that my clients are really flexible, and I try to be flexible as well. And I think I attract the type of clients for whom that works.

[00:30:45] And if someone needs a set appointment at a certain date every time, you know, the same time and date, I just don't take them on. I will send them to someone else. My clients need to sometimes have appointments on different times. What I do is that I work Sundays. So my week goes from Sunday to Thursday, and I always work Sunday evening wherever I am, so that will be European morning at the moment while I'm in Australia.

[00:31:12] And the only time zones that are really tricky to navigate are those where you're, like, 12 hours apart because that really limits, you know, 12 or 13 or 11 hours like we have right now. And as long as you only have a few clients like that... Like, if all of your clients are that far away, it's going to be really tricky.

[00:31:28] But my clients are all over the world, it, kind of works. Like, I feel like it just magically sorts itself somehow

[00:31:36] Kym: That's amazing. Yeah, I love that. What is the booking software you- 'cause I know people listening are probably gonna email me and say, "What is the booking software she uses?"

[00:31:45] Sonia: So I use Acuity. but there are options out there. and I hope to switch to a different one at some point that's not US-based because as someone with a business in Europe for data protection, -- using US software is actually not really recommended.

[00:31:58] So, try to use more European-based things for-- but I don't have a European booking system at the moment.

[00:32:04] Kym: Good. That's, this is great advice. I'm sure it's gonna help a lot of people. Well, thank you so much. So how do people find you if they want to connect with you and, join your community or learn more about what you're doing?

[00:32:14] Sonia: Yeah, so the easiest is my website. I'm not really on socials anymore. I had, I'm on LinkedIn, so you can connect with me there. But we obviously have a Facebook group. We have a paid membership, the LIT Community. You can find all of that on my own website or on the locationindependenttherapist.com community.

[00:32:32] the easiest to reach me is email. I do not check my emails all the time, but I will respond at some point, I promise. And otherwise, come join us in our Facebook group to start with, and then maybe inside the paid community if you're looking for more location-independent community of colleagues and that international intercultural aspect of business coaching and clinical supervision and talks and exchange. Yeah. And, and really we have such an amazing, such an amazing international... Like I, I really love working. I think it's one of the things becoming a digital nomad and leaving Germany in a certain way really helped me think outside the box, because this type of work requires that. But then you also need to surround yourself with people who are doing it as well, because there will be so many people telling you, "You can't do this.

[00:33:25] It's impossible. It's not gonna work. It's not legal." And so surrounding yourself with people who have been doing it, who are doing it, and who won't promise you that it's going to be super easy, because there are so many people out there with the fast success kind of promises. That's just bullshit. But it's possible.

[00:33:43] It's going to be hard work, but it's also going to be amazing, and you don't have to do it alone. So surround yourself with like-minded colleagues

[00:33:51] Kym: Oh, that's amazing. Thanks for taking the time today, and I hope everybody will go check you out and learn more about you. Congratulations with everything you built, and, and continued success in your travels.

[00:34:02] Sonia: Thank you so much. And I'm, I'm glad to hear we could inspire you when you got started as well

[00:34:08] Kym: Yes, definitely. Oh my gosh, yes. Yeah, I mean, I think Facebook groups are terrible in a lot of ways, but they're really good in a lot of ways because like you said, you can see that it's possible. So, you know, a lot of Facebook groups have inspired me for a lot of different things. You know, entrepreneurial stuff, and the traveling, and being online, and all of that has been super helpful. So yeah.

[00:34:27] Sonia: But they can also be very harsh, which is I think one of the reasons why we wanted a smaller, more positive and helpful community and why in the first place we, we started it. Because we're like the tone on this, in these Facebook groups can sometimes be really, really ugly.

[00:34:41] Kym: Oh, it kills me. Yeah,

[00:34:43] Sonia: I love how in, how in our lit community you really see people just sharing their struggles openly and everyone jumping in to support them.

[00:34:51] And I think that's the kind of space we usually create for our clients, but we often don't have for ourselves. So I think no matter where you find that, whether it's in our community or somewhere else, just to anyone listening, make sure you have that for yourself. It's so important to protect our own mental health and then to create amazing businesses that help us live the life we want to live

[00:35:11] Kym: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. That's such good advice. Thank you so much for taking the time today. I hope you guys will check out everything that Sonia offers. It'd be down in the show notes, so you can go ahead and click through to everything that she's put out into the world. Thank you 

Why PTO Doesn't Fix Burnout (And What Does) with ShannonElaine John

If you've ever come back from a vacation still running on empty, you already understand why PTO doesn't fix burnout on its own. In this episode of The Traveling Therapist Podcast, I sit down with ShannonElaine John, a licensed therapist and EMDR specialist who spent over a decade in the travel industry before founding Travel To Retreat, a travel advisory built specifically for burned-out healthcare and service professionals.

ShannonElaine unpacks the guilt and savior complex that keep so many of us from actually stepping away, why the balance between rest and fun determines whether time off actually works, and how that same thinking is showing up in her work with ancestral travel and retreat planning for other practitioners.

In This Episode, We Explore…

• Why guilt and a savior complex keep healthcare professionals from truly taking their PTO.
• The two-part balance between rest and fun that actually resolves burnout.
• How a decade in the travel industry shaped ShannonElaine's approach to burnout prevention.
• What ancestral travel is and why it's becoming a meaningful way to reconnect with identity.
• How ShannonElaine helps other practitioners plan and run their own retreats.

Connect with ShannonElaine John:
Website: https://traveltoretreat.com/ | https://alongyourjourney.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannonelaine-john/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ShannonES.John/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/happychani | https://www.instagram.com/traveltoretreat

Connect with me:

Instagram: @thetravelingtherapist_kym
The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/
Signup to learn more about life as a Traveling Therapist: https://www.portablepracticemethod.com/free-training
Revolutionize Your Private Practice with AI Course: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/ai
Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: www.kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab

Subscribe to the Podcast:

Apple iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcast | Stitcher | Amazon | Castbox

______________________________

Sponsored by Berries:  Say goodbye to the burden of mental health notes with automated note and treatment plan creation! https://heyberries.com/therapists

Sponsored by Alma: Managing a private practice can be challenging. There are obstacles at every turn — from navigating the credentialing process, to managing finances, to finding new clients. That’s where Alma can help. Alma is on a mission to simplify access to mental health care by focusing first and foremost on supporting clinicians. https://helloalma.com/kym

______________________________

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Kym: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Traveling Therapist podcast. We have a very interesting guest today, therapist in the travel world helping therapists with their travel. Pretty cool. So glad to have you here, Shannon Elaine John. Glad to have you here. I always start out with that question, like, how did you go from being a typical therapist to a traveling therapist?

[00:00:21] Shannon: Thank you for having me. To answer your question, I started out in the travel industry in general. I was a flight attendant a tour agent. I kinda started out there. My father passed away, and that caused me to hang up my wings, go back and get my education. And so it's just kind of been these two worlds just already there, just kinda simmering below the surface. Yeah. 

[00:00:43] Kym: Okay.

[00:00:44] Gotcha. So tell us about the travel industry. You spent a decade doing that, right? So, flight attendant, wholesale travel agent, and a tour agent. Could you talk about that a little bit? Sure. And then I'd love to hear, like, like, so what was that thing that made you leave that, your dad, of course, passing away.

[00:00:59] Sorry to hear about that. 

[00:01:00] Shannon: Thank 

[00:01:00] Kym: you. But what, what was it about that that made you, like, decide you need to, like, buckle down, I guess, and get a, get a, I don't know if you call it a real job. I don't know. I mean, I feel like this already was a real job. 

[00:01:09] Shannon: Yeah. 

[00:01:10] Kym: So maybe tell us a little bit about that, that decade, and then what led up to, you know, "All right now I've gotta really do something different." I'd love to hear about that. 

[00:01:18] Shannon: Yeah. So I started when I was about 16. I lived in Las Vegas at the time, Nevada. Okay. And I started as a tour agent helping a, a local tour company there. I'd go collect tickets, drop them off, sometimes meet people at the airport, and just really just kind of help them just get set up and get their tickets for their shows and all those sorts of things. I really loved the travel industry, so I went on to get a trade degree. And then worked in wholesale travel agent just after that.

[00:01:47] Kym: Okay ... 

[00:01:48] Shannon: but even in the trade school, I really wanted to be a flight attendant. So that was- Hmm ... the drive of, like, I just need to, you know, get my loan paid off and, you know, get out there and stuff. So I got hired technically by Southwest just before 9/11. And then 9/11 happened. Oh. Yeah. Oh my 

[00:02:04] Kym: gosh. 

[00:02:04] Shannon: Yeah. Whoa. Okay. So they delayed my training for about four months. And then I ended up going to a regional carrier because I really just still wanted to be working. And then yeah, that was it. I was a flight attendant for about five and a half years or so. Uh, Until my father passed away. 

[00:02:20] And that, you know, when we have those experiential moments, those, those existential kind of moments when someone we are really close to leaves us it has us to kind of really reflect on where are we at, where do we wanna be, what did we say we were gonna do, right?

[00:02:35] So- Yeah ... I remember these conversations that I had had with my father, and I just didn't do it. I just didn't do it. So when he passed, I was like, "I'm doing it." So I put myself through undergrad and grad school, just a straight 10-year go. Wow. And yeah. 

[00:02:50] Kym: So what are you doing now, like, in your practice? Like, I guess you, you went ahead, you got the undergrad, the masters, and you're licensed now. Can you tell us a little bit about, like, your background as a therapist now that you've switched over to that? Yeah, ab- I know you're doing both, and I wanna, like, show how you're intermingling the two.

[00:03:06] But yeah, can you tell us about, like- Yeah ... what 

[00:03:08] Shannon: you do? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So currently, I'm a small group practice owner. I started Travel to Retreat just before the pandemic. Left my full-time job literally the week before the pandemic, just opened up here in Colorado. But yeah, I've, I've worked in integrated care.

[00:03:25] So I did my two years acquiring my hours for a full licensure, you know, in integrated care. Did a, um, internship in correctional facility. I worked three years, I'm guessing right now off the top of my head, for Logan Mental Hospital while I was in grad school. Oh, 

[00:03:41] Kym: okay. Cool ... 

[00:03:42] Shannon: and then even before that, we, when we had registered psychotherapists here in Colorado when they were more prominent I started in domestic violence working as a bilingual counselor, women's counselor, and addictions work, and just, you know, had my foot in mental health before I even started my, my graduate program.

[00:04:03] Kym: Wow. Okay. Yeah. And now you're EMDR trained, right? EMDR certified, right? 

[00:04:09] Shannon: EMDR certified. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:04:10] Kym: Okay. And doing, like, the intensives model. Is that, is that right? Mm-hmm. Okay. 

[00:04:15] Shannon: Yeah, so I do I do, you know, weekly sessions, but I also do- Okay ... intensives. 

[00:04:19] Kym: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:20] Shannon: Yeah. 

[00:04:20] Kym: Very cool. I love- Mm-hmm ... that intensive model.

[00:04:22] I think it's just so smart. 

[00:04:24] Shannon: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:04:25] Kym: It works- Especially if you're a traveler, you know, 'cause it, it- Mm-hmm ... you know, it's, you can kinda, like, knock 'em out and then take some time off, you know? It's- 

[00:04:31] Shannon: Yeah, yeah ... 

[00:04:32] Kym: okay, so you talk about, like, why that, like, take your PTO fails as advice for healthcare- Mm-hmm and service professionals. let's talk about why you say that and then what actually does move the needle, like, for people, therapists- Mm-hmm ... you know, mainly that are burned out, that kinda thing. Why just, like, "Oh, take a few days off," isn't exactly the best, like, solution. Can you dive into all of that for us?

[00:04:56] Shannon: Yeah. So, you know, what comes to mind first is, like, what prevents a lot of healthcare workers, professionals, just professionals in general, right, from taking their time off. A lot have a, a very driven, kind of type A, go-get-em- Mm-hmm ... grit, all these sorts of things. They also have a tendency to believe that a lot of their value is tied up in the giving, right?

[00:05:18] The idea that if I leave, then who's gonna be here to take care of X, Y, and Z? Whether it be, you know, in-home care, counseling, teachers, you know, taking care of students, like whatever, doctors, whatever it looks like. So the guilt creeps in, the nobody will do it as well as I do it, and all these sorts of thinking pops in.

[00:05:37] So that's one of the, one of the first struggles is kind of challenging some of that. Sometimes it also s- comes down to boundaries, just individuals not being aware of their boundaries or, yeah, maybe not having as many as we could have. 

[00:05:50] Kym: so you're saying like even when you're taking your PTO, you've got like this guilt and this like savior complex maybe that a lot of us have that like- Mm-hmm

[00:05:58] is just like lingering, so it like totally overshadows the time off. You're not able to actually unwind and like rejuvenate, regenerate, that kind of thing. Is that- 

[00:06:08] Shannon: A little bit of both. I think a lot of the, the other stuff is what prevents people from actually taking it. They're more likely to- Oh, I see

[00:06:14] take a staycation, or they're more likely to just let it accumulate o- over a long period of time because they're just not taking it. And so that's the factors that I think are, tend to be more on kind of the earlier stages. And, and I'm, I'm imagining too there are a lot of individuals, and I've heard actually a lot of individuals that have a hard time enjoying their trip when they do take one.

[00:06:33] Yeah. But what happens when people are on the trip, first thing, is that they wanna plan a trip, again, this is the travel advisor part coming in- Yeah, 

[00:06:41] Kym: yeah ... 

[00:06:41] Shannon: they wanna plan a trip the same way that they run their work. So they wanna go, go, go, get it all done- Mm-hmm ... and that kind of thing. Of course, that's not gonna translate to, you know, feeling like you actually had some time off if your nervous system is running at that same level.

[00:06:57] so, you know, when a... As a travel advisor, this is where I bridge a little bit of, you know, my own self and my own knowledge as a, as a counselor, and h- is that the way you wanna be doing your trip, you know? And we have a conversation- Yeah ... about what that means and what it would look like. I'm...

[00:07:11] I support them just like a counselor would, of like your choice, your decision. But we do talk about, like, what would be the best way to really get the most out of it, not just in- Yeah ... what they're gonna see and what they're gonna eat, but also in, like, how they're gonna experience the trip.

[00:07:28] Kym: Interesting.

[00:07:29] it's more, like... And I was gonna ask you kinda, like, what's the difference in, like, a travel agent and a travel advisor, and it sounds like it's more of a, um- It's 

[00:07:36] Shannon: interchangeable. It's like counselor and therapist. Okay. It's just an interchangeable language, yeah. 

[00:07:41] Kym: Okay, I gotcha. I gotcha. But it sounds like you do go a little more in depth. Like, you actually, like, listen to- Mm ... their why a little bit, and then try to- Yeah ... structure the planning around what would actually support them and not just, like, throw 1,000 excursions at them or something like that. 

[00:07:55] Shannon: Yeah, absolutely. You know, a, a, a travel agent/advisor, again, they're, they're... Ch- terms are used interchangeably- Mm-hmm similar to, like, flight attendant and stewardess, right? They're just kinda maybe dated terms or just depends on what you like better, counselor or therapist. But they qualify. It's called qualifying a client. So they basically do the interview, and where do you wanna go, and what is your budget, and, like, what already do you...

[00:08:20] have you identified that you wanna do or stay or those sorts of things, and they go at it from that approach. I integrate a little bit as myself as the therapist, not in a I'm providing counseling, but in a, in a fashion that says, "I understand the way we communicate. I understand just kinda what's maybe below the surface a little bit," and I ask- Mm

[00:08:37] probing questions to get a little bit deeper when I am qualifying a client to help them have the best experience, not just see the most things or do, you know, whatever. 

[00:08:48] Kym: That's really cool- Thank you ... coming from a, from a therapist perspective Yeah ... to have that deeper understanding of what's really going on.

[00:08:54] Yeah, I love that. Mm-hmm.

[00:08:56] So what actually moves the needle on burnout then, instead of just, like, take your time off, go do an excursion? Like, what, what have you found- Yeah ... like, in your experience actually makes a difference? 

[00:09:05] Shannon: Again, I'm pulling from the therapist/counselor side. There are two factors that are needed for someone to actually feel rejuvenated and that the, time off, you know, lowers the needle on burnout and that sort of thing. Those two factors are rest, and fun, enjoyment. If you have ever, thinking back to, like, your 30s, whatever, right?

[00:09:27] You're, you're just growing up. If you remember having a really, really laid back weekend where you laid around on the couch, read books, maybe binged watched some shows, and then you went back to work on Monday and you were like, "Ugh, I just still feel really burned out and I don't wanna be here." Right? What's missing there? Missing is the fun. 

[00:09:47] Kym: Yeah. Right. 

[00:09:48] Shannon: And then if you have, like, those crazy fun weekends with friends and doing birthdays and doing, you know, concerts and movies, whatever, you go back to work on Monday and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I just still feel so overwhelmed and burned out."

[00:10:01] Uh-huh. Yeah. It couldn't. It didn't have a, a relaxation factor in there. And so an individual has their own personal balance of what is needed, and that can change over time, but that's something else that I bring into the conversation. When's the last time that you actually did some fun stuff? When's the last time that you actually did some relaxing stuff?

[00:10:17] And then we talk about what makes that trip specifically, where do we wanna bend the needle there?

[00:10:23] Kym: Yeah, that makes so much sense. Gotcha. Yeah. let's talk next about how did coming to therapy from the travel industry shape Travel to Retreat, and what is Travel to Retreat? Like, let's talk about that whole thing. 

[00:10:33] Shannon: Travel to Retreat It's a small travel agency that caters to individuals that are, are professionals, that are those, you know, guilt, can't take time off-ridden individuals- Mm ... the ones that are burned out the individuals that maybe have, you know, poor or kinda loose boundaries or maybe just don't know what they look like or are not as balanced in that relaxation, rest, with the enjoyment and fun, and they just don't know really how to find that that relaxation or the self-care.

[00:11:06] So I started that to support those individuals actually taking their PTO, having them, you know, get the best experience out of that PTO alleviate a lot of the planning. Individuals that are taking care of everyone else in their normal work day life and in their home life, you know, not a lot of them are really jazzed about the whole idea of spending hours researching and finding and planning their trips.

[00:11:32] You know, they, they know what they want, but they would rather just not have to do that also on top of everything else. and so that is what I bring in is that, you know, decade plus expertise in the travel industry and counseling kind of thinking and background to help people really get the most out of those trips.

[00:11:52] That's 

[00:11:53] Kym: really cool. 

[00:11:54] Shannon: Yeah ... and that is, that, to answer the first part of your question, that is where these things meet up. You know- Right ... I'm bringing the, the, the reading between the lines, the dual processing, the, you know, the communication, the understanding of boundaries and what that looks like and how to listen for where it exists and where it doesn't.

[00:12:13] And just really helping individuals figure out what it is that they want to get out of that trip 

[00:12:19] Kym: Very cool. Very cool. Thank you. So when people book their own travel online, what does it really cost them when something goes wrong versus maybe using somebody like you that just kind of plans the whole thing out?

[00:12:30] Shannon: Yeah. So like I was saying, it does take hours of research, especially- Yeah ... for individuals that don't already have a lot of the knowledge running around in their background like advisors do. Mm-hmm. So I wanna back up just a little bit. Yeah. Advisors train just like counselors do. There's CEUs that they're doing.

[00:12:47] There's, you know, these different trainings. You know, are they a a cruise specialist, which I am. Are they a, you know- Oh ... land specialist, which I am. So like they go and they do these different trainings and webinars and all of that. It actually mirrors ironically it lo- it mirrors a lot of the way that we do our education, continuing education and counseling.

[00:13:06] Kym: Fun ... 

[00:13:07] Shannon: and so they h- bring all of this knowledge, and then they have their own network, just like counselors do, right? So as a counselor, you know, if I need to consult around, mm, does this person maybe have an eating disorder, but that's not something I specialize in, I'm gonna reach out and say, you know, "Give me your insight.

[00:13:24] This is your expertise," so that I can gauge ethically whether I need to refer out or whether I'm in a safe space within scope of practice or whatever. Mm-hmm. Same thing for advisors and travel agents, right? They have their whole network, have a consortia and all of these individuals that they h- have relationships with that might specialize in a specific location.

[00:13:45] They can reach out and be like, "Give me the rundown on this. I have a client that wants to do this. I haven't taken that training, but give me the rundown, you know, on this." And, and and they're more... They have access to individuals that are in these little niche pockets. Oh, 

[00:13:58] Kym: cool ... 

[00:13:58] Shannon: a consortia is a larger umbrella.

[00:14:01] So they're individuals that'll go and just buy a whole plane or buy like 30 cabins on a cruise at, like, really de- low rates. 

[00:14:11] Kym: Oh, cool. Right. 

[00:14:12] Shannon: And so travel advisors can then tap into those pockets and pools to then offer those things to their clients.

[00:14:20] Kym: Nice ... 

[00:14:20] Shannon: so 

[00:14:21] Kym: what's- So there's like deep, deep discounts that you guys can access that we couldn't as just like a layperson trying to book our travel.

[00:14:28] Shannon: Yeah. Sometimes it's discounts. A lot of times it's more in the line of amenities. Oh. So, you know, they'll have like all of these e- fluff additions kind of plugged in that really just makes the experience. And, and you won't be able to find those through, you know, online te- platforms. Mm-hmm. What a lot of individuals in, traveling don't realize they might just hop on any one of these tech platforms and just book themselves.

[00:14:52] And, and we do, we can. They are a travel agency. Mm-hmm. The difference is, is those commissions are built in- 

[00:15:00] Kym: Mm ... 

[00:15:00] Shannon: already automatically. Okay. So you can either hire a travel advisor to do this for you, or you can do it yourself, but the tech company is keeping that commission. You're not getting it in the form of discounts.

[00:15:13] Kym: Oh, I see. Right, right, 

[00:15:14] Shannon: right. So more, more often than not you know, they can fluctuate five or 10 whatever dollars. Like, if you're gonna get into, like, the tiny little bits, those individuals probably are better off doing it themselves. The counselor in me would be like, "There's some other clinical issue there."

[00:15:29] But yeah, you know, if someone's really concerned about $5 difference, then yeah,

[00:15:33] Kym: Yeah ... 

[00:15:34] Shannon: they would be better off probably doing it themselves. But there is there's variation, so it'll kind of ebb and flow in some little small range like that. So, and that's on... That's up to a travel advisor that is doing it to go through all of the suppliers and still find those good rates for clients.

[00:15:51] Whereas when they're doing it themselves, they'll just go to their go-to most of the time of like, "Oh, I know this one is... I go there and it's good, and I'll just go with that one." So they're not even really price searching necessarily- Mm-hmm ... or even supplier searching. So more in alignment with what feels good is the searching for what I know will follow through.

[00:16:09] So- Mm ... I might work with a supplier, and maybe there's a few hiccups in over a couple of years of, like, the... They're not actually having accommodation. Like, it's just not working out where they show up, and they're like, "We don't even have a room here," or whatever, right? Mm-hmm. That's a bad example- Mm-hmm

[00:16:25] because I always call ahead. But, 

[00:16:27] ... 

[00:16:27] Shannon: The point being is, like, some, some extenuating circumstance. I might decide, mm, that's not the best supplier to continue using- Mm-hmm ... if they're having these issues. But I have those ones that I've developed relationships with that I know time and time again follow through.

[00:16:42] Yeah. And that doesn't always exist on those platforms. 

[00:16:46] Kym: Very, very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Oh my gosh. So let's see. There, there's something else you talk about that I found really interesting, that's this ancestral travel. Mm-hmm. Is this, is this like, popular... Is this like a trend right now?

[00:17:01] Or what, what is this, ancestral travel? I'd love to talk about that. 

[00:17:04] Shannon: Yeah. So as you're probably seeing in in the world as a counselor there's this, there's this sh- paradigm shift happening. Okay. There's a lot of polarization. There's a lot of disconnection. And so individuals are looking for that.

[00:17:20] They're maybe looking for friendships, right? We hear this in our counseling sessions, they're looking for dating or friendships or whatever, and they're having a hard time in that area. Or or estrangement from parents, or these sorts of things. You know, in the t- in the travel industry so individuals are using that as an avenue to be like, "Let me go connect.

[00:17:37] Let me go, you know, to where grandma lived, you know, when she moved here, before she moved here to the United States." Those- Yeah ... kinds of things. And to go a little bit deeper this is where the cultural competency, cultural awareness piece comes in. I don't remember if I mentioned or not, I do have a minor in ethnic studies, and so that's- Oh, okay

[00:17:57] been another little small pocket niche of where I look at where these intersectionalities of oppressions kind of align up in different situations in therapy. Wow ... and, and this is where it's flowing over into the travel industry,

[00:18:10] Kym: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:18:11] Shannon: in that in America we have an American identity, right, a white American identity, and not a lot of people really know what their lineage is.

[00:18:20] Hmm. Whereas individuals of color absolutely do know and they care about those things. They really, really value that, their spoken language or their, the, the way that their, you know, great-grandparents cooked meals or those sorts of things. And so I encourage you know, traditional Americans to go find some precolonial roots, you know?

[00:18:39] That way they can- Yeah ... create a balance in their identity,

[00:18:42] Kym: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:18:42] Shannon: and and, and, and be able to meet individuals with an understanding of why that might be important to them as well. 

[00:18:49] Kym: Wow. Really cool. Yes. Oh my gosh. Okay, so how do people find you? Like, how do they work with you? What's the process look like?

[00:18:57] If somebody's listening and they're like, "Okay, I wanna, you know, I wanna take some real time off. I don't wanna be, like, just burned out when I get back, and I love this ancestral kind of thing." Like, how do people- 

[00:19:08] Shannon: Yeah ... 

[00:19:09] Kym: find you and work with you? 

[00:19:11] Shannon: So I'm pretty pretty out there on pages. I have a traveltoretreat.com is the website.

[00:19:17] Okay. I am on Instagram and and Facebook as well. I believe we also have a LinkedIn page. So we're out there in social media as well as the as well as the website. I think it's important for me to state ethically I do not provide travel services to client, counseling clients- 

[00:19:36] Kym: Yeah

[00:19:36] Shannon: and vice versa. If I have had a service, you know, if I have provided a travel-related service to somebody, they do not then get to become my client as a counselor. Love that. Yeah. I refer those individuals out.

[00:19:49] Kym: Hm ... 

[00:19:49] Shannon: but yeah, as far as my private practice goes, alongyourjourney.com. Oh, 

[00:19:54] Kym: okay. 

[00:19:55] Shannon: Yeah. And I'm actively seeing clients in Colorado and Washington.

[00:19:59] Kym: Nice. Okay. And it's just, it's called Travel to Retreat, right? 'Cause I- Mm-hmm ... I was looking at your bio earlier and I was like, you're not helping, like, service providers also build retreats, right? You're just, like- Oh, yes I 

[00:20:11] Shannon: am ... helping 

[00:20:12] Kym: them with... Oh, you are? Oh, 

[00:20:13] Shannon: I absolutely 

[00:20:14] Kym: am. Oh, tell- Yeah ... tell us about that, 'cause I wasn't sure of the wording.

[00:20:16] I was like, are they, are you helping them, like, retreat, like, like we've been talking about? Or do you actually help build retreats? 'Cause I'd like to- 

[00:20:23] Shannon: Both ... 

[00:20:24] Kym: hear about that. Both. Tell us about that. Yeah. 'Cause I'm sure people listening wanna know about that too. 

[00:20:28] Shannon: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So for anyone that has done retreats, they know there's a lot of back-end pieces.

[00:20:34] Yeah. There's a lot of, like, blocking the rooms and all the moving pieces. Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:38] Kym: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:38] Shannon: You know, as a travel advisor, especially for somebody wanting to break out into the retreat industry, they don't even know where to start in trying to do that. Yeah. So I can come in and, and hold that kind of administrative piece on the back end and help them navigate that.

[00:20:52] Nice. So that they get to focus on what's their workshop, what's their, you know, purpose in doing it, who are their people that, that space, and I can focus on all the technical stuff on the background. So absolutely help individuals that have, that are wanting to just break out into retreats or individuals that have done them before but the, but the, but the administrative stuff, that part is not their fun part, not the stuff that they 

[00:21:14] Kym: like.

[00:21:14] Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:21:14] Shannon: I'd be, I'd be like, "Great, assign it to me and I'll take it over." 

[00:21:17] Kym: Amazing. Yeah. 'Cause I mean, I run the Traveling Therapist Facebook group, and I'm like, I've literally never had, like, a retreat. Yeah. You know? Because, because of that very reason. It's, like, too much. Like, the logistics- Mm-hmm ... I'm like, I don't even wanna think about how to set all that up.

[00:21:31] Yeah. It just seems like a lot. But that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. So somebody like me, I would reach out to you and just say, like, "I'm thinking I wanna do, like, what? A 10-person retreat in- 

[00:21:39] Shannon: Mm-hmm, 

[00:21:40] Kym: yeah ... Aruba. Can you, like, hook me up?" And you'll, like- Yeah ... find the place and g- get the, block the rooms and- Yeah ... do, do you, do you advise on, like, "Well, this is how much you should charge," or, you know- Mm-hmm

[00:21:52] it, I mean, all of those moving pieces? Or is it- Absolutely ... more like the travel- I- ... and the logistics? 

[00:21:58] Shannon: While I can't tell you what to charge because you know- Yeah ... what your value is on what you're providing- Sure ... I can help you break down the monetary amount on the, on the administrative travel side of things.

[00:22:08] I can provide air for the indi- for the attendees that want to. I can help you build in excursions if you want that with reputable individuals. Like, I can- Wow ... bring all of that into it so that you can find a balance of, like, we're gonna go and do these collective fun things together that I don't actually have to know how to do this or hire somebody to do this.

[00:22:28] You know, I can bring those in. And so the, you know, the facilitator just gets to focus on what are they cultivating there, what is, you know, maybe what their workshops are or, or what they're doing, In those in between times of, you know, when the excursions are plugged in. 

[00:22:44] Kym: Wow. That's really cool. Yeah. Is that all on your website too?

[00:22:48] Shannon: Absolutely, yeah. 

[00:22:49] Kym: All right. I'm gonna have to go check that out. That's very cool. Thank you. Yeah. I love that. That, that will help people a lot, I think, knowing that. 

[00:22:56] Shannon: Yeah. 

[00:22:56] Kym: Thank you so much. So, we'll put all your information down in the show notes, your links and everything. Oh, thank you. Is there anything else you wanna share or anything we didn't ask about?

[00:23:05] Shannon: I don't think so. Okay. I just wanna say thanks for having me on your podcast. And I look forward to- You're welcome ... yeah, supporting anybody that I can in what- wherever they're at in travel and burnout or, you know, in their counseling needs. 

[00:23:19] Kym: That's amazing. Yeah, EMDR intense. So is anybody listening in the state of, what, Washington?

[00:23:23] Yeah. Is that where it's ... 

[00:23:24] Shannon: Yeah. Washington, Colorado. Yeah. 

[00:23:25] Kym: Okay. Very cool. Yeah, love that. Well, thanks so much for taking the time today.